Confronting racism. BBC report on a very brave lady

[Whitespirit66]

Jeez. Are people still wasting their time with this pious old bore?



Just say and think what you like. Don't let this cretin try to bore you into doing otherwise with his moronic lefty spiel and ideologies. Being discriminating could save your skin one day.

Who does he think he is?

 

[Big Tone]

From another thread. Hope no one minds but it was too much of a drift where it was..

Does that not illustrate their immature personalities?
I don't mind people winding me up and I'll retalliate likewise, but to be abusive in order to goad a bystander is still abusive to the victim.
It's like beating an animal to offend the RSPCA. It's perverse.

They think that I'm their victim but they don't see that I'm not their victim. According to you, they are abusing others in their attempt to wind me up. Now if you think that's my fault that others are being abused, then you have a wierd perception of the issue.

I’m not sure who the “bystander” is here, but I take your point.

I’m not blaming you for anything and I’m sorry we got off to such a bad start. My only point is, has been, that people don’t change. I don’t like it anymore than you, (well maybe you don’t like it a bit more than me), but that’s life.

Not wanting to get off topic, (honestly), and maybe I should post this on ‘the other’ thread. But, in brief, I was in a situation over the weekend which made me think actually the focus on racism, your focus, is not what it is about so much but more about respect.

What happened was I was in a pub, in Stratford, and there were two men talking rather loudly at the bar. Two women also came, (looked like mother & daughter), and sat down after buying a drink and I could see the girls wincing at the foul language the one man was using.

It made me feel very uncomfortable I can tell you! It wasn’t racist in the slightest, that wasn’t the subject, but the one in particular was using the F-word and other vulgarities. As well as making me feel uncomfortable and embarrassed, it made me realise that what we have been arguing about for so long is more about respect for others than any ‘ism as such.

Anyway, sorry for the drift but I wanted to get my uncomfortable observation off my chest. I was very close to giving him a piece of my mind, but that would probably have made me as bad as him..

 

[RogueHanger]

From another thread. Hope no one minds but it was too much of a drift where it was..

Does that not illustrate their immature personalities?
I don't mind people winding me up and I'll retalliate likewise, but to be abusive in order to goad a bystander is still abusive to the victim.
It's like beating an animal to offend the RSPCA. It's perverse.

They think that I'm their victim but they don't see that I'm not their victim. According to you, they are abusing others in their attempt to wind me up. Now if you think that's my fault that others are being abused, then you have a wierd perception of the issue.

I’m not sure who the “bystander” is here, but I take your point.

I’m not blaming you for anything and I’m sorry we got off to such a bad start. My only point is, has been, that people don’t change. I don’t like it anymore than you, (well maybe you don’t like it a bit more than me), but that’s life.

Not wanting to get off topic, (honestly), and maybe I should post this on ‘the other’ thread. But, in brief, I was in a situation over the weekend which made me think actually the focus on racism, your focus, is not what it is about so much but more about respect.

What happened was I was in a pub, in Stratford, and there were two men talking rather loudly at the bar. Two women also came, (looked like mother & daughter), and sat down after buying a drink and I could see the girls wincing at the foul language the one man was using.

It made me feel very uncomfortable I can tell you! It wasn’t racist in the slightest, that wasn’t the subject, but the one in particular was using the F-word and other vulgarities. As well as making me feel uncomfortable and embarrassed, it made me realise that what we have been arguing about for so long is more about respect for others than any ‘ism as such.

Anyway, sorry for the drift but I wanted to get my uncomfortable observation off my chest. I was very close to giving him a piece of my mind, but that would probably have made me as bad as him..

Quite agree, BT. It is about respect, or disrespect as the case might be.
Those who don't appreciate or can't differentiate between accpetable and unacceptable behaviour are simply disrespectful. But, there's a difference between disrespect out of ignorance, and disrespect out of intentionally offending others.
One can be taught, the other needs someone to stand up to them, and in my experience, they'll usually back down, because that's the kind of people that they are.
Now, these type of people do it online for the very reason that they can get away with it, with no fear to their personal safety.
Edit: Additionally, BT, that's two perfectly ordinary threads "hijacked" by racist comments posted by abusers: the cat thread and the UKIP statisitics thread.
Now that's a typical case of irresponsible behaviour.
They'll post their offensive comments irrepective of the thread subject.

 

[Big Tone]

Edit: Additionally, BT, that's two perfectly ordinary threads "hijacked" by racist comments posted by abusers: the cat thread and the UKIP statisitics thread.
Now that's a typical case of irresponsible behaviour.
They'll post their offensive comments irrepective of the thread subject.

Rightly or wrongly, that's very much down to the regulators of The Board and varies from one to another. So kinda you pays yer money and takes yer chance, sort of thing.

I once mentioned a place I joined where 'anything goes', (and I do mean anything), and I got flamed. I remember at one point even a Mod jumped in and said something like "all right guys, back off" which was pretty much ignored. It was as bad as it gets! (Made this place look like Sunday School).

But because I'm an adult with a lifetime of experience and could see it for what it/they are it honestly didn't bother me. i.e. Many usernames, (them), being vile to one username, (me) - so what! Of course though, if it were in the real world it would be very different.

I eventually left that forum because there were too many whom I felt were there just 'getting off' on abuse, which was a shame because by stark contrast there were some very good and intelligent posters on there. (It was an American Site IIRC on Atheism). I think it's since gone or now regulated, but that was a long time ago and I can't remember what it was called, or what I was called for that matter. Maybe Big Tone

So the way I look at it, whatever forum you subscribe to, if whatever is being said is not censored then those are the 'rules of engagement' as it were. Again, not saying it's good, but just how things are.

I’ve said it before, (and it makes me look like a creep), but I think the Mods/Admin have a good balance between too much censorship and not enough. All posters ought to be able to freely express themselves and that very freedom will inevitably bring with it some bad feeling. (Which works both ways; lest we forget).

 

[RogueHanger]

Yeah, OK, BT. But aren't you saying that abusive behaviour is acceptable in public?
Just because it's anonymous doesn't make it acceptable, IMO. Indeed it could be argued that it's even more immoral, because the perpetrators are hiding behind their anonymity.
Also, this public forum is permanent, whereas a public verbal arena is very temporary.
Aditionally, children have access to this site, there are no warnings, so it perpetuates online abusive behaviour. Is that a responsible approach?
I don't think so.
It would be as bad as posting pornography without warnings.

 

[Big Tone]

Yeah, OK, Rogue.

But despite what you think of me, (a racist), you are and always have been pushing against an open door regarding racism, you big fat tit! And I am way past trying to prove anything to you.

Where we disagree most, IMHO, is I don't think you can realistically do anything by opposing a few racists, allegedly, on a forum which makes absolutely no difference to policy, Government or anything!

It's 'just' a forum here. And if you think this forum is any different, or worse, than any other, or most other forums - I am lost for words.

To use a colloquial expression you 'do my head in'. Can you translate that in French please?

Oh, and you know that thing which bugs the sh1t out of you where someone asks a question you've already answered or should be so obvious you want to scream? Is that annoying? Yes or no?

More oh, just to be clear and answer your question. I think abusive behaviour in public is perfectly acceptable of course!!!

"A sarcasm detector. That'd be useful"

 

[RogueHanger]

Where we disagree most, IMHO, is I don't think you can realistically do anything by opposing a few racists, allegedly, on a forum which makes absolutely no difference to policy, Government or anything!

I take your point, BT, that it's just a forum.
But (a) to allow abusive behaiour without objecting, criticising or taking some steps towards stopping or reducing it, we are acquiescing to it.
That means we are accepting it, by virtue of not objecting to it. and (b) if we allow abusive behaviour to be acceptable in one or more arena we are liable to "bad behaviour creep" where it seeps into other parts of society and other arenas.
As responsible adults, we should do what we can do eliminate or reduce that potential "creep" of bad behaviour.

It's 'just' a forum here. And if you think this forum is any different, or worse, than any other, or most other forums - I am lost for words.

I have been on a couple of other forums, (expat forum and motor racing forum) and there is nothing like this sort of abusive behaviour tolerated, either by the mods, admin or other posters. Any posters would be immediately banned for the sot of unacceptable behaviour, not only tolerated on this forum, but IMO, even encouraged. Especially, if joe is the owner, his behaviour is as bad or worse than others, and he often initiates the bad behaviour.
Moreover, and I've mentioned it before, but I have been previously banned for objecting to the abusive behaviour. That is what demonstrates the institunionalised abusive pattern of this forum.
That's not sensible, not responsible and not normal.
Additionally, it's such a shame because the site, in other forums, provides a good service.

To use a colloquial expression you 'do my head in'. Can you translate that in French please?

Best I could think of is:
"Vous me donnez mal a la tete" without using the verb to annoy.

Oh, and you know that thing which bugs the s**t out of you where someone asks a question you've already answered or should be so obvious you want to scream? Is that annoying? Yes or no?

Yes, but your suggestion to acquiesce to the abusive behaviour is at odds with your statement.
It bugs the ****e out of me that you don't realise that.

 

[Big Tone]

No, not acquiesce. It’s just how it goes in a free market. People have a right to be whatever they like, within the law. Since no one is doing anything illegal here it’s a case of one man’s meat is another man’s poison. Your moral compass is different to that of other people. The mods, not just here but in general, can be damned for doing something and damned for not.

There will always be those who are easily offended and yet more will argue along the lines of I can’t so much as fart around here. And you have made a big assumption about who a mod is. I think you are wrong about that; you know that thing about ass/u/me?

Like I’ve said, this isn’t a church and yet you have elected yourself to clean it up like one. It’s more like a brothel, with a few slappers I wouldn’t touch with a bargepole. With respect, I don’t think either me or you can, or should, act like self-appointed forum police. If I tried to pull a stunt like that on other places I’ve been they would tell me, in no uncertain terms, to stick my attitude where the sun don’t shine.

You have raised your objections well, forcefully and consistently. But if I were you I’d let it go now - it is not our Site! You can’t enter the Pentathlon and expect everyone only to throw javelins. I remember a phrase someone once told me long ago “What you resist persists. When you stop resisting it stops persisting”. Perhaps you should start a Web Site, something like cleanupforums.com. (I just made that up BTW).

 

[RogueHanger]

No, not acquiesce. It’s just how it goes in a free market. People have a right to be whatever they like, within the law. Since no one is doing anything illegal here it’s a case of one man’s meat is another man’s poison. Your moral compass is different to that of other people. The mods, not just here but in general, can be damned for doing something and damned for not.

There will always be those who are easily offended and yet more will argue along the lines of I can’t so much as fart around here.

To tacitly accept something as inevitable is as to acquiesce, surely.

To take your scenario of the other day, in a bar in Stratford. If you'd said something to those that were behaving unacceptably, and someone intervened with the argument that it's a free world and those behaving badly have a right to do so because they are doing nothing illegal, you would have acdepted as a fair argument, and similarly acquiesced?
Additionally, wouldn't the behaviour of all protaginists be deemed divisive.
However, you wouldn't have started the division, those behaving unacceptably would have started the division because they ignored the rules on proper behaviour in society.
Or should we re-write the unwritten rules on what is acceptable?

And you have made a big assumption about who a mod is. I think you are wrong about that; you know that thing about ass/u/me?

Sorry, I don't remember making any assumptions about who is a mod.
I've made a guess about joe being the owner, which someone, possibly you, mentioned earlier, and since retracted. In addition, joe has been one of the longest members on here and has gotten away with far more than anyone else.

Like I’ve said, this isn’t a church and yet you have elected yourself to clean it up like one.

There's the rub. I have been a contributor and in the past contributed to the other forums. But, when I objected to the abuse on the GD forum, I was banned for it.
It was called for by the abusers and admin obliged. Therefore, it can only be assumed that admin/owners are basically of the same mind as the abusers.

It’s more like a brothel, with a few slappers I wouldn’t touch with a bargepole.

Then it ought to have a warning of such behaviour. Moreover, if an underage person or someone who was easily offended accidentally wandered into a brothel, they would soon be turfed out.
There is no such method of avoiding the potential of giving offense other than to ban those objecting to the abuse.

With respect, I don’t think either me or you can, or should, act like self-appointed forum police. If I tried to pull a stunt like that on other places I’ve been they would tell me, in no uncertain terms, to stick my attitude where the sun don’t shine.

A self-appointed policeman (a) has a degree of power, which I don't, only influence. Therefore the analogy is false. and (b) a self-appointed policeman, who was upholding the acceptable standards would probably gain some majority support. In GD forum there have been a few vehement objections to my criticisms, none less so than yourself.

You have raised your objections well, forcefully and consistently. But if I were you I’d let it go now - it is not our Site!

Similarly, BT, you have been the most staunch supporter of abuse in GD forum.

You can’t enter the Pentathlon and expect everyone only to throw javelins. I remember a phrase someone once told me long ago “What you resist persists. When you stop resisting it stops persisting”.

Again not a suitable analogy.
People can discuss any subject they want to, including immigration, racial tension, etc, but without resorting to abuse. It's not difficult.
Moreover, somethings need discouraging, not overt outlawing.
If discrimination had been discouraged perhaps it would not have been so prevalent and legislation may not have been required.
Abuse, based on prejudice, based on ignorance, should never be tolerated.
It will not disappear if we ignore it and to suggest it will, is naive.

Perhaps you should start a Web Site, something like cleanupforums.com. (I just made that up BTW).

Not a bad idea. I could elicit support and ideas for cleaning up forums such as GD forum.

In conclusion, BT, you are suggesting that:
a) abuse on GD forum is a fact of life
b) we should accept it
c) it isn't going to go away, unless we ignore it
d) if we do ignore it it will stop
e) it's a free world and we should allow people to misbehave if they want, and
f) if people are offended, so what? Who cares?

Does that about sum up your argument? Isn't that anarchy?
Anarchy rules!
I could add a little icon to suggest a bit of irony is required but that would be supercillious.

 

[Big Tone]

Now you are not comparing like-for-like. What separates a forum from a Public House is far greater than any similarities. Both are public arenas but that’s about all, on the face if it. Apt word there, “face”.

You have said yourself forums are anonymous, so who and what is being offended exactly? You could disappear tomorrow and come back under a new ID with a completely new slate. We would know absolutely nothing about you. Not so in a pub. In a pub, it’s pretty obvious who is or isn’t being offended, or offensive, despite not knowing anyone’s name. If you have taken a taxi there or pre-booked or struggled to get in due to disability, or simply just committed to a drink you have bought and meeting up with friends, it’s not like you can easily just abandon ship like you can on a forum. I just wanted to stay and enjoy my Speckled Hen for half and hour; why should I rush because of an a-hole.. None of this applies to a forum and you can only ‘bump’ into the same idiot at a pub in real life.

The ease with which you can engage in battle here is the very same ease with which you can exit, if you so choose, with no more physical energy than lifting a finger. GD has no monopoly on respect or manners, or anywhere else I know of Rogue. Maybe you’d be good enough to link to a site where you say the GD is everything this site isn’t. I’d like to see for myself and test your theory. Now then, the rights and wrongs of it all...

I am not and have not said it’s right, good or anything I agree with. But I go back to what I said about “I may hate what you have to say but will defend your right to say it!” Quite honestly, that includes racism, sexism or just about anything else! May I also remind you that you have said some pretty mean and unwarranted acid posts here! Should you have been censored or banned earlier; like you want for others? They, the Mods, haven’t censored or banned you and they are still giving you air time - for now.

Where’s their credit for tolerating the abuse you have slung at others? Did you consider my feelings or some mums or minors here who would find your comments equally despicable as the racist comments - or more so? You’re quite selective with what you find objectionable I notice. You will take that as me not supporting you, again, and I’m a racist again, and again.. Just because I am not pro-actively supporting you in your fanatical approach, you take it that way and keep falsely accusing me.

 

[RogueHanger]

I am not and have not said it’s right, good or anything I agree with. But I go back to what I said about “I may hate what you have to say but will defend your right to say it!” Quite honestly, that includes racism, sexism or just about anything else!

But do you think it's remotely responsible to allow it?
But then to take a moral attitude with other types of behaviour, e.g. DIY gas, etc.

May I also remind you that you have said some pretty mean and unwarranted acid posts here! Should you have been censored or banned earlier; like you want for others? They, the Mods, haven’t censored or banned you and they are still giving you air time - for now.

The massive difference is that I've been insulting to those abusers, without being abusive with racial, sexual, homophobic, etc, undertones.
The abusers on here are abusers to a group of people, who happen to belong to that group, by accident of birth, to use your phrase, simply because they can get away with it only on here.
It would not and is not tolerated anywhere else.
You think it's right and proper that DIYnot gives an opportunity for abusers to abuse others?

Where’s their credit for tolerating the abuse you have slung at others? Did you consider my feelings or some mums or minors here who would find your comments equally despicable as the racist comments - or more so?

My comments have been insulting towards particular people, i.e. the abusers, not abusive in terms of using unacceptable prejudiced abuse, that insults a whole group of people for no reason.

You’re quite selective with what you find objectionable I notice. You will take that as me not supporting you, again, and I’m a racist again, and again.. Just because I am not pro-actively supporting you in your fanatical approach, you take it that way and keep falsely accusing me.

But, by not objecting, therefore acquiescing and even arguing that it should be allowed, you are supporting a social media site that creates a selective forum, where ethnic minorities, gays and some religions are obviously not wanted, or even tolerated.
GD forum can't be seen to discriminate, and even if it was prepared to it couldn't because it is not aware of the ethnicity, sexuality or even gender of the posters. However, it sets out to make ethnic minorities, gays and some religions suffer enormous abuse in order to participate.

Whichever way you look at it, BT, DIYnot allows, even encourages, abuse towards certain ethnicities, gays and some religions.
That's reprehensible. It's not "free speech", it's "abuse others if you want to, we'll not stop you".

 

[enyam]

It's not "free speech", it's "abuse others if you want to, we'll not stop you".

Heres something to think on RH.

“You can't pick and choose which types of freedom you want to defend. You must defend all of it or be against all of it.”

 

[Big Tone]

I'd like to thank you for that enyam, but I can't because I'd be supporting racism...

 

[Whitespirit66]

I like the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

Pity the lefties like Coathanger want to quash everyone's freedoms to suit their own sinister agendas. They, along with many in government and The EU, want to change our lives and countries. They can't handle dissent from those who just won't be silenced.

 

[EFLImpudence]

“You can't pick and choose which types of freedom you want to defend. You must defend all of it or be against all of it.”

I like the quote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

Both sound good but are wholly inappropriate as they in truth apply only to those freedoms still permitted.