1YR Old Patio destroyed by the frost HELP needed!!

[Riaanevans]

Hi,

I was wondering if you could help me on the below major problem I have

My builder has built the following patio (extension and patio) Due to the fall from the house into the garden (1m drop into my garden)

Built Date May 2012

Block and beam construction
4 m beams
9 inch thick block work supporting 4m beams
Bricks used to face up the wall

http://www.heidelbergcement.com/NR/...828-AE03-20F8A588770E/0/burghleyredrustic.jpg

Frost Rating F2
Hanson Burghley Red Rustics

Slabs Global Stone Castle Grey
Mortar used Romex Easy brush in.

75 bricks have blown over the recent winter, which I know was extreme but I would not expect this many to blow.

Builder suggested a brush in mortar due to the patio being laid on a block and beam base, needed a mortar with flexibility to compensate for the slight flex.

Builder supplied everything, I researched and supplied the Romex. He had not used Romex before but the reviews I read was a good sufficient German product.

Builder is blaming the Romex saying it is allowing the water to come through under the slabs (because he dot and dabbed the slabs i can see ponding underneath when it rains) and come to the front of the retaining wall saturating the top course of bricks and when the frost comes hence the bricks blow.

Builder saying he can’t get back till spring next year, we can’t wait that long as the steps are dangerous and my wife is pregnant.

The rest of his work is bang on, he is adamant it’s the Romex.

He is suggesting hack out the Romex and point with a waterproof flexible filler (Which I have no clue what to use) and screed the wall (he doesn’t want to hack out 75 bricks saying pointing won’t match, week’s worth of work etc)

Wife does not want the wall to be screeded plus after few months it will be green with algae.

What do you suggest.

What can I point the patio with which is flexible but near on 100% waterproof.

I now have to wear the cost of the repairs on top of the original £6000 patio.

One guy said.

Repoint in standard mortar with lime
and replace top course bitument the back and drill weep holes in the block floor under the last row of slabs.

Dont want anyone to do anything until i get to the cause of it.

Live in Essex so happy it anyone is local who thinks they can solve the problem.

Happy to have the job sorted properly but dont want to pay out then it all happens again this winter.

Any help is much appreciated.

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[jeds]

I'm surprised the bricks have blown so quickly. Even if they were constantly saturated I reckon they should have lasted longer than 12 months. If it were me I would re-lay the top courses of brick, hack out the patio joints and re-do them with a waterproof jointing mortar. There are loads to choose from. Arcaflex comes to mind.

Only other thing I would say is that those slabs have no drip on them. So water runs across the top of the slabs, down the face and then back underneath the overhang onto the top bricks. If you've got the slabs off you could grind a small groove about 25mm in from the edge (don't go mad - a few mm will form a drip) Or you could run a small bead of polysulphide mastic along the fixed ones.

 

[Riaanevans]

Thanks Jeds. problem I am finding is that most jointing mortars are permable due to current regs.

Do you know any other flexible waterproof paving mortar, as need something dark grey to match the slabs.

I have 40sqm to point so something in large tubs would be great. Previous lot of Romex cost me a pricey £220 for 90kgs

The drip line are you saying to score under the slab a small 2mm deep line 25mm from the wall so this causes a drip to form and fall off the slab than run down the wall. Good idea.

 

[jeds]

10kg tub should do about 70 or 80 linear metres.

http://www.arcane-industries.co.uk/...nts-and-cracks-concrete-pvc-metal-tiling.html

 

[limerockconstruction]

The drip is very important, most of the spalled bricks are close to the overhang.

I would go with Jeds and cut in a drip.

As for replacing the bricks, is he saying he'll come back and replace them for free, or to charge you? Also, who chose the slabs and designed the patio?

 

[Riaanevans]

We had to use 90kg of the brush in mortar as the joint depth is different in different places.

Is there anyway to make a standard pointing mortar waterproof/slightly flexible by adding additives to it.

Whoever i use to come and fix the patio i will get them to cut a drip line in.

i told the builder what i wanted and he suggested the block and beam construction as the patio is 8.5m x 4m with a height of 1m. No chance of backfilling that.

 

[limerockconstruction]

Not to my knowledge - mortar is the opposite of flexible.

As for the design of the patio - I would have thought that 4m beams was too much, unless some sort of RC slab was cast over it. Either that or sleeper walls at the 2 m mark?

I would have thought the builder should have flagged up the potential flaw in the design - however, if he was given a set of plans to work too and has done so then he's fine.

 

[Riaanevans]

will lime not give it some flex?

Would a Sbr Waterproof Bonding Agent be ok to add to the paving and brick mortar. would that stop water penetrating the pointing and getting under the slabs?

the 4m beams are tied into the new extension and a 9 inch block wall all the way around then face dup with these Hanson bricks.

 

[trowlerman]

I would use normal mortar with waterproofer in the mix for the patio and cut a drip in the overhanging slabs , as said by the others I would think tha ts whats causing the bricks to blow.

an airbrick wouldn't go a miss either

 

[^woody^]

I would contact the manufacturer and get a rep out to have a look. You may have a batch of badly fired bricks

Lime mortar wont do jack to prevent a frost spalling problem. Neither will any pointing of the slabs

The issue may well be one of design of the overhang, leading to saturation of the face of the brick, and despite being F2 rated the brick may well be too absorbent for that use and that location

 

[limerockconstruction]

I was concerned with the 4m span giving a bounce to the floor which will give it too much movement

 

[Watshot]

Is it not going to need a re-think anyway with the height of that drop, once your baby starts crawling everywhere. Railings or whatever. Or were you planning on selling up before that happens?

Just a thought if you were pulling some of it up again.

 

[noseall]

I took one look at the patio design and shuddered. It is lethal, all but for a stuntman or an acrobat.

I agree that the bricks would have spalled regardless.

The wall needs extending up beyond the level of the slabs with the falls going towards the steps. The walls should have extended out with the steps and stepped down to suit.

The steps out of the bi-fold doors look equally as lethal especially stepping out. Perhaps you don't like old people or young children.

 

[Riaanevans]

I will defo get a drip line cut and while i am having the top course replaced pop a few air bricks in there to let any water out that might get under.

Im waiting on a Hanson rep to call me back, guarantee they will say "na bricks are perfect" and blame something else.

Surely pointing the slabs with something more waterproof than a permable brush in mortar will stop some of the water getting underneath the slabs and rushing forward and soaking the top course.

What overhang in mm should be the minimum with regards to laying slabs?
I think i only have about 25mm (when the slabs are reset i could get them set 10mm forward) could i put some sort of beading, DPC or plastic trim underneath to stop the water directly hitting the 1st row of bricks.

with regards to the drop we will be putting some stainless Steel and Glass Balustrades up but need to get the brick issue sorted first.

Thanks Limerock for the advise, no bounce as of yet that's why i am thinking of putting lime in the mortar to give some flex if needed.

What cement mix would you recommend for the pointing and the mortar?

 

[limerockconstruction]

I dont see the problem as water penetration and then coming forwards - I see it as running off the top of the patio and down the face of the bricks.

Hanson will probably tell you that the lack of drip is the cause and effect of the spalling, and too be fair, they'll have a case. The slabs should protrude something like 40mm and for there to be a drip half way (ish)?