50 million pound Holocaust mermorial.

[RNReindeer]

70 years after the liberation of auschwitz, is it not time to move on? There are enough memorials and documentaries aplenty on the subject. Let it go ffs

Yeah, it's not like anything like that could ever happen again,is it.......

I doubt very much that central London would be high on the list of likely spawning grounds for any coming genocides, though.

Is that a NIMBY approach, Brigadier?

 

[RNReindeer]

My apologies for a slightly off-tack comment, but it's hardly worth a thread of its own. Also my apologies for mentioning prejudice, yet again, in a thread that has by and large been devoid of prejudicial comments.

On This Week last night Michael Portillo made, for me, a very insightful comment.

He connected the rise in anti-semitism with the current Israeli foreign policy. He is the first politician (or ex') to make such a connection, AFAIK.

His comment revolved around a similar argument that is used for terrorism viz-a-viz Islam:
The Israeli foreign policy is not determined by jews around the world. It is the policy of the democratically elected govenment in power at the moment in Israel. But it is not reflected by the beliefs, votes, etc of the vast majority of jews around the world.
Therefore anti-semetism, in regard to Israeli foreign policy is misplaced. (apart from the fact that it's a mindless prejudice anyway.)

 

[Brigadier]

70 years after the liberation of auschwitz, is it not time to move on? There are enough memorials and documentaries aplenty on the subject. Let it go ffs

Yeah, it's not like anything like that could ever happen again,is it.......

I doubt very much that central London would be high on the list of likely spawning grounds for any coming genocides, though.

Is that a NIMBY approach, Brigadier?

Not in the slightest - it is a practical approach.
£50 million (plus) would do far more good (reducing the likelihood of genocide), if spent on educating middle Africa, or the middle / far East. IMHO.
In this country, we are reminded of the horrors of what the Nazis did, in school, the news media, the internet, all with some degree of regularity. Apart from grandstanding, what real additional benefit will splurging a huge amount of money on such a monolith / exhibit bring, especially in the middle of one of the most developed and "civilised" cities on Earth?

 

[mark vincent]

My apologies for a slightly off-tack comment, but it's hardly worth a thread of its own. Also my apologies for mentioning prejudice, yet again, in a thread that has by and large been devoid of prejudicial comments.

On This Week last night Michael Portillo made, for me, a very insightful comment.

He connected the rise in anti-semitism with the current Israeli foreign policy. He is the first politician (or ex') to make such a connection, AFAIK.

His comment revolved around a similar argument that is used for terrorism viz-a-viz Islam:
The Israeli foreign policy is not determined by jews around the world. It is the policy of the democratically elected govenment in power at the moment in Israel. But it is not reflected by the beliefs, votes, etc of the vast majority of jews around the world.
Therefore anti-semetism, in regard to Israeli foreign policy is misplaced. (apart from the fact that it's a mindless prejudice anyway.)

Are you saying that the rise in anti Semitism has nothing to do with with Israel's treatment of Palestinians So when people watch innocent women and kids being slaughtered by Israeli's they don't get angry because they feel that the Israeli's shouldn't be allowed to get away with murder the real reason is because they just don't like Jews
What would your response be if the shoe was on the other foot and thousands of jews were being slaughtered by Palestinians, would you just shrug your shoulders and say every nation has a right to self defense.
As for Israel being a democracy what about the 750,000 Palestinian refugees expelled from their own land to make way for the Jewish state what do you reckon the chances are of these people being allowed to return to their country and vote in elections
It used to be said that an anti semite was some one that didn't like Jews, these days it appears that an anti semite is some one whom Jews don't like.

 

[RNReindeer]

70 years after the liberation of auschwitz, is it not time to move on? There are enough memorials and documentaries aplenty on the subject. Let it go ffs

Yeah, it's not like anything like that could ever happen again,is it.......

I doubt very much that central London would be high on the list of likely spawning grounds for any coming genocides, though.

Is that a NIMBY approach, Brigadier?

Not in the slightest - it is a practical approach.
£50 million (plus) would do far more good (reducing the likelihood of genocide), if spent on educating middle Africa, or the middle / far East. IMHO.
In this country, we are reminded of the horrors of what the Nazis did, in school, the news media, the internet, all with some degree of regularity. Apart from grandstanding, what real additional benefit will splurging a huge amount of money on such a monolith / exhibit bring, especially in the middle of one of the most developed and "civilised" cities on Earth?

A couple of points:
1. Our opinion of education for other countries may not be the education that is needed or wanted. It can often be interpreted as intrusive foreign policy, to be polite. I'm not dismissing the idea but it needs more thought than a simplistic acceptance.
2. "one of the most developed and "civilised" cities " Yes, and one of the most cosmopolitan and multi-cultural cities.

 

[Brigadier]

70 years after the liberation of auschwitz, is it not time to move on? There are enough memorials and documentaries aplenty on the subject. Let it go ffs

Yeah, it's not like anything like that could ever happen again,is it.......

I doubt very much that central London would be high on the list of likely spawning grounds for any coming genocides, though.

Is that a NIMBY approach, Brigadier?

Not in the slightest - it is a practical approach.
£50 million (plus) would do far more good (reducing the likelihood of genocide), if spent on educating middle Africa, or the middle / far East. IMHO.
In this country, we are reminded of the horrors of what the Nazis did, in school, the news media, the internet, all with some degree of regularity. Apart from grandstanding, what real additional benefit will splurging a huge amount of money on such a monolith / exhibit bring, especially in the middle of one of the most developed and "civilised" cities on Earth?

A couple of points:
1. Our opinion of education for other countries may not be the education that is needed or wanted. It can often be interpreted as intrusive foreign policy, to be polite. I'm not dismissing the idea but it needs more thought than a simplistic acceptance.
2. "one of the most developed and "civilised" cities " Yes, and one of the most cosmopolitan and multi-cultural cities.

So, do you agree that splurging £50 million + in London will achieve very little additional benefit?
( I wasn't advocating sending Oxbridge graduates over to central Africa, to patronise the locals to death, btw )

 

[RNReindeer]

My apologies for a slightly off-tack comment, but it's hardly worth a thread of its own. Also my apologies for mentioning prejudice, yet again, in a thread that has by and large been devoid of prejudicial comments.

On This Week last night Michael Portillo made, for me, a very insightful comment.

He connected the rise in anti-semitism with the current Israeli foreign policy. He is the first politician (or ex') to make such a connection, AFAIK.

His comment revolved around a similar argument that is used for terrorism viz-a-viz Islam:
The Israeli foreign policy is not determined by jews around the world. It is the policy of the democratically elected govenment in power at the moment in Israel. But it is not reflected by the beliefs, votes, etc of the vast majority of jews around the world.
Therefore anti-semetism, in regard to Israeli foreign policy is misplaced. (apart from the fact that it's a mindless prejudice anyway.)

Are you saying that the rise in anti Semitism has nothing to do with with Israel's treatment of Palestinians

I'm saying that Michael portillo is/was the first to publically connect the two, AFAIK.

So when people watch innocent women and kids being slaughtered by Israeli's they don't get angry because they feel that the Israeli's shouldn't be allowed to get away with murder

I'm saying that if people object to the Israeli foreign policy, their objection should be directed at Israel government, not at jews, in general.

the real reason is because they just don't like Jews

There may be some truth in that.

What would your response be if the shoe was on the other foot and thousands of jews were being slaughtered by Palestinians, would you just shrug your shoulders and say every nation has a right to self defense.

My opinion is that Israel has gone beyond the realm of self-defence. But that was Israel governement hardliners, not jews in general.

As for Israel being a democracy what about the 750,000 Palestinian refugees expelled from their own land to make way for the Jewish state what do you reckon the chances are of these people being allowed to return to their country and vote in elections

I agree with your sentiments, and Israel is acountry of apartheid, jews and palestinians do not have the same rights. That is the fault of Israeli government, not jews in general.

It used to be said that an anti semite was some one that didn't like Jews, these days it appears that an anti semite is some one whom Jews don't like.

Isn't that the same argument as saying an ethnic minority labels someone as a racist because they don't like them. I don't accept that argument.

Again, my apologoies for introducing prejudice into this thread.
If I thought my comment would have provoked such a reaction I would have started a new thread.

 

[RNReindeer]

So, do you agree that splurging £50 million + in London will achieve very little additional benefit?
( I wasn't advocating sending Oxbridge graduates over to central Africa, to patronise the locals to death, btw )

Some things, I am ambivalent or undecided about.

 

[mark vincent]

I think at some point Holofatigue will set in, you cant turn on the Tv or radio or read a newspaper these days without something holocaust related appearing, the documentary "the 7 dwarfs of Auschwitz" has been on again, I have already watched it twice, what is there about the Holocaust that we don't already know

 

[noseall]

I take it you lost out on the tender then, Noseall?

Whilst my big hooter was enough to get my foot in the door it fell way short in convincing anyone that I was part of the chosen ones.

 

[RNReindeer]

I think at some point Holofatigue will set in, you cant turn on the Tv or radio or read a newspaper these days without something holocaust related appearing, the documentary "the 7 dwarfs of Auschwitz" has been on again, I have already watched it twice, what is there about the Holocaust that we don't already know

The current interest is about the memory, not simply informative.
Although I don't think that we should disregard the opportunity to inform those that are coming of such an age that they can comprehend the issue.

Also, the holocaust was slightly different to the other atrocities that occurred as recently as the WW2.
The holocaust was a result of prejudice against a race of people, not excluding gypsies, and others.

Other atrocities occurred and some nations suffered more casualties, e.g. Russia, as you pointed out, Poland, and China. But these losses were not the result of a systematic attempted extermination of a race of people.

 

[Brigadier]

.......... the result of a systematic attempted extermination of a race of people.

That's it then - stick the thing in Germany - they're good at systems. Given our abject track record on anything "systemic", we couldn't even organise a decent p!ss up in a brewery, let alone a systemic attempt at genocide.

 

[RNReindeer]

.......... the result of a systematic attempted extermination of a race of people.

That's it then - stick the thing in Germany - they're good at systems. Given our abject track record on anything "systemic", we couldn't even organise a decent p!ss up in a brewery, let alone a systemic attempt at genocide.

Interesting that you intersperse the word systemic in place of systematic.
Systematic = a step by step approach. Accurately referring to the holocaust I thought.
Systemic = so ingrained that it's difficult to eradicate. Accurately describing prejudice, perhaps, but not describing the holocaust, IMO.

 

[JohnD]

I doubt very much that central London would be high on the list of likely spawning grounds for any coming genocides, though.

Long before the genocide comes the racist, ethnic and religious hatred.

Central London has quite a small resident population, so you should be watching the larger towns and cities.

There is no shortage of people filled with racist, ethnic and religious hatred.

 

[Micilin]

There is a Jewish joke,

'There's no business like Shoah business'