Adding a Ring Main

[Mindstorm]

Hi,
I have knocked the dining room / kitchen through and was adding some more sockets to supply dishwasher, new fridge location etc.etc.

House is 1990's and only has one ring main for the whole house, as i have the kitchen ceiling down to fit spotlights, I decided to run a fresh 'kitchen' ring main in so my questions are :-

i) Would it be preferable to pull the cables up from all the existing sockets in the kitchen and blue crimp them together within the ceiling cavity, then run my fresh wires to the sockets. (two of the low level sockets are well away from the others and i was 50/50 about leaving them on the other ring)

ii) There are loads of electrical suppliers in my area but non of them have blue crimps and suggest junction boxes, not possible as they will be behind an unaccesible ceiling, am i right in thinking these crimps are exactly the same as used in the automotive indusrty? If so i have loads and the crimps to match.

iii) I have 3 sets of outdoor lights and the 5 core armourmed terminates in the kitchen, is it better practice to run a seperate 1.5mm cable direct from the fuse box to cover these lights or tap into the nearest ceiling rose? the lights will be mains running 2 sets of led's and 1 mains outdoor lampost. ( I will have them running to a 3 gang light switch)

Best Regards,

 

[sparkyspike]

Definitely a good idea to have a kitchen ring. If possible, pull out all the kitchen wiring to leave two dead ends on the rest of the ring, then wire these with new cable directly to the CU, without using any through crimps at all.

If you have a large house, consider seperate up and down rings. One ring is good for 100 sqm.

Take the opportunity to run seperate radials for the fridge, outside lights etc from the CU, if there is space.

 

[ricicle]

Have you notified your LABC about this work?

 

[Mindstorm]

Trouble is the ring splits upstairs and down on the single ring, and as it goes across to the front room (freshly plastered) it will be difficult to separate upstairs from down (although i would like to), I was going to pull the ring up from the kitchen sockets and join the ring back up with crimps to keep that circuit going (in the ceiling cavity), then run my own wires down to these sockets + additional ones for new sockets, Im trying to bring the house closer to what i have read about 17th edition, including fitting a new split RCD consumer.
The guy before me was obsessed with chocolate blocks and adding spurs off sockets, and all the sockets are above worktop, I have put ring main fused spurs with under top socket points, so i am doing away with all this old school with my wiring.

I have already run a radial to the outdoor lights (I have a large roll of 3+earth), do i run all the wires to meet the armoured, then run the live from here to the switch, or do i separate the live at the ceiling and run it to the switch from there, I guess if i did i would need to join it to a single core to run it to the switch ?

Will run independent for fridge.

As for inspections, this is a stud wall and my own property, I was going to complete the wiring and price up part P inspection, I know all this slightly exceeds the adding a new socket reg but it will be a lot safer than it is.

Also while there is a mass of pipes now exposed which are mainly radiator, is it correct to earth bond all these together? cant make out the bathroom stuff as it looks like its in the wall cavity.

Cheers,

(If im to use crimps please advise of the correct type)

 

[rebuke]

Crimp wise these are what you want (for 2.5mm cable at least): http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CTBUTTslashB.html

You also want to use a ratcheting tool (i.e. http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/DVDHCR15.html), rather than a non ratcheting version, as you can't guarantee they're crimped correctly at that point.

Not sure what automotive ones are, so no idea if they're the same or not. Note that Screwfix sell crimps, so if there's a trade counter near you that would be an easy place to get them from, and I've even seen a B&Q set with crimps and a ratcheting tool...

As for Part P - you can't just get someone in to inspect, you have to notify the LABC before carrying out the work, and they will then tell you when they want to come and inspect/test etc. If you tell them after you've done the work, you'll have to pay a (normally higher) regularisation fee, and they're quite within their rights to tell you to rip bits out (especially if you've e.g. tiled over it so they can't see how a cable is buried in the wall) and force you to redo things. Remember if you come to sell the house at some point in the future, solicitors are now starting to ask for building control completion certificates etc for work done.

You don't need to do any supplementary bonding in a kitchen, so assuming your main bonding is in place (i.e. 10mm earth cable to main water and gas incomers), that's all that's needed. The bathroom is of course another matter...

 

[Mindstorm]

thanks for all the replies btw.

Been into local screwfix and asked are these crimps automotive or household, andwer was 'no idea'
I can say they look identical to automotive ones and so does my ratchet crimp pliers. ( I will try B&Q)

As for part P, i was going to leave all the wiring exposed for the inspection, I have dug out to the breeze block in vertical lines above sockets and horizontal to a close socket, am intending to overcap with metal (god knows how they think this will stop a drill though).

Any idea how much i will pay ? to late to ask them first as im 3/4 the way through now...

 

[Taylortwocities]

Its no good going to Screwfixor B&Q and asking them, you are doing the installation and (I guess) it will be to the relaevent wiring standards so you are supposed to know.

Electrical suppliers staff are specifically instructed not to provide that sort of advice due to possible litigation if it goes wrong later.
You know, you tell the fire investigator "Alf at B&Q said that it would be OK to use automotive crimps". (it is not OK, by the way).

You had better get notifying your LABC pronto. There's lots you have already done that is notifiable work (change of consumer unit, outside wiring, new circuits etc etc).

Suggest you start by reading the WIKI Electrical Installation Work and the Law.
Nobody will buy your house unless you get it done properly with all of the required certificates and notices in place.

 

[rebuke]

The cost varies between different LABCs, but the 'norm' seems to be around the £100+vat mark (if notifying at the correct time etc). Around my neck of the woods (Cambridge City Council), the regularisation charge (i.e. if you've already started without notifying etc), is 120% of the normal fee, i.e. would be £120+vat. Obviously though it might cost you more if they decide they want you to rip things out etc...

 

[sparkyspike]

Capping won't stop a drill. Which is why you have to wire in certain zones. If you are wiring out of these zones, then capping won't do, you need metal conduit. Capping is there to hold the cable in place and prevent it getting nicked by a plasterers' trowel.

 

[Mindstorm]

Sorted it, decided to get a 17th edition board fitted, had 3 sparkys round who said my wiring was of a proffesional standard, ie) all wiring is in correct zones and correctly laid out and would be happy to test and certificate it while installing the board...£280 for the board installed and full test.
As for crimps, went into another of my electrical wholesalers who had some new Ashley 17th edition rated spring loaded junction boxes which are clearly marked as 32amp, and they are maintainance free.
Got there in the end, thanks for all the help guys.

 

[bongos]

As for crimps, went into another of my electrical wholesalers who had some new Ashley 17th edition rated spring loaded junction boxes which are clearly marked as 32amp, and they are maintainance free.

I'm sure there was some comment recently on whether a spring loaded junction box did actually comply with 562.3

Was there any conclusion?

 

[securespark]

Don't crimp all the existing drops to the sockets!!

Work out which are the incoming and outgoing legs of the ring into the kitchen, then join these together.

 

[Mindstorm]

Ye, thats what im intending to do but its made a little more difficult working out because there is now 1 kitchen where there used to be a dining/kitchen, and with it being a one ring house before, the other side of the ring will probably go into the front room, then upstairs then into the board from the other side,
the spark said he will help choose the right one to cut.

 

[sparkyspike]

I'm sure there was some comment recently on whether a spring loaded junction box did actually comply with 562.3
Was there any conclusion?

It's open to debate whether they are 100% maintenance free. But even if they are, 526.3 requires that they are ACCESSIBLE as well as maintainable.

Crimps though could comply with the strangely worded 526.3 (iv)

 

[Mindstorm]

mm, Not sure how they could sell it as 17th edition maintainance free if it isn't?

Their info site seems to state the same,
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Hager/JB_Guide.pdf

Need to find out quick, lol, the boards are going up soon!

Heres another, going to use a 2 gang light switch to power 2 sets of 4 halogen downlights, I can move the existing wires to the 1st one of the set so it is accessible, is it best to junction box and feed every light individually, or
Go from light one to the next and ending at the fourth light? They dont give you much space to feed in 2x 1.5mm wires at the lights thats all.