Atag A325EC or Intergas Combi Compact HRE 36/30 ?

[ManxDude01]

Which boiler did u go for in the end,i'm needing a new boiler and was researching the intergas when I came across this thread,and now atag is in the mix,would be great to know which boiler and why that u picked,and if now installed,how have you found it?

 

[sadanorakman]

Did not buy yet because...

Fell off my roof, breaking my heel, my Fibula, dislocating my ankle, and breaking a bone in my hand too... The subsequent surgery and (initial)recovery to a limping-without-crutches stage has taken me out of action for basically three months, which meant winter was upon me!

So my terribly inefficient old boiler has to try and get me through another winter, and I'll now very likely be buying the Atag next summer!

 

[sadanorakman]

Just an update... broken leg much better! Through-wintered with my old boiler at vast expense.

NEW BOILER PURCHASED, delivered, and ready to be installed.

.....I went with the ATAG A325ECX.

Thanks for all the advice along the way gents... much appreciated!

Now my attention is turning toward opentherm control, and system filters. I've just ordered a Sentinal Eliminator after much agonising between TF1 vs MB3. I guess time will tell if I made the right decision!

 

[Dan Robinson]

If you want opentherm then you'll need Atag's own AFAIK, which are not the most user friendly.

My advise would be to hybridise the system and use a weather sensor and either a cm927, 907 or EVO home controller.

 

[dcawkwell]

Atag with recovery unit built in. ECX I think it is.

Parts available next day by courier.

 

[sadanorakman]

Atag with recovery unit built in. ECX I think it is.

Parts available next day by courier.

What are you actually advising me of here please dcawkwell?

 

[sadanorakman]

If you want opentherm then you'll need Atag's own AFAIK, which are not the most user friendly.

My advise would be to hybridise the system and use a weather sensor and either a cm927, 907 or EVO home controller.

thanks Dan. The A325ECX came with it's own weather compensation sensor, which will get fitted.

As for opentherm, I don't like the £215 Atag Wize controller much, and was hoping to get the system working with a Remeha I-Sense. (Apart from the fact I like it's layout, it's literally half the price at only £105).

I emailed Remeha, and they say they have no idea if their thermostat will work with the atag, and my guess is that Atag will say exactly the same about the I-sense!

Ironically, I thought the whole point of opentherm was that it is a common protocol, thus allowing the mixing and matching of controlers to boilers!!!

I've looked briefly at further levels ofcontrol e.g. Z-Wave controlled electronic TRV's, Nest, and Max!, but they all have their disadvantages, and can be hugely costly (Which is why I didn't mention Honeywell ). These controll systems don't seem to support opentherm either, unless I get into DIY circuit building and programming in order to break into the opentherm datastream and modify the data packets between boiler and thermostat.

Other than individually controlling each room's temperatures, I don't want to zone the house per-se because I live in a bungalow with every room opening onto a central small hall, so there's not much point in controlling the bedroom temps down during the day, as we like to have all the room doors open to the hall.

I think therefore I'll just go with an opentherm thermostat/programmer with boiler weather compensation, and liquid TRV's on each rad except for the one where the thermostat is.

 

[blakie8]

Just an update... broken leg much better! Through-wintered with my old boiler at vast expense.

NEW BOILER PURCHASED, delivered, and ready to be installed.

.....I went with the ATAG A325ECX.

Thanks for all the advice along the way gents... much appreciated!

Now my attention is turning toward opentherm control, and system filters. I've just ordered a Sentinal Eliminator after much agonising between TF1 vs MB3. I guess time will tell if I made the right decision!

Just wondering what made you plump for the Atag over the Intergas? I'm having the same dilema but have got wind of the new Intergas HReco Combi, life is too complicated enough!

 

[Dan Robinson]

They're are various versions of opentherm and manufacturers can lock it Duran as well.

Hobeywell invented it. The last Atag I installed I tried to control with a Honeywell opentherm controller.

It didn't end well.

 

[David937]

Just an update... broken leg much better! Through-wintered with my old boiler at vast expense.

NEW BOILER PURCHASED, delivered, and ready to be installed.

.....I went with the ATAG A325ECX.

Thanks for all the advice along the way gents... much appreciated!

Now my attention is turning toward opentherm control, and system filters. I've just ordered a Sentinal Eliminator after much agonising between TF1 vs MB3. I guess time will tell if I made the right decision!

Would you be so kind to let me know by PM who you are going to get to install it? I don't know of any ATAG installers here

 

[sadanorakman]

Just an update... broken leg much better! Through-wintered with my old boiler at vast expense.

NEW BOILER PURCHASED, delivered, and ready to be installed.

.....I went with the ATAG A325ECX.

Thanks for all the advice along the way gents... much appreciated!

Now my attention is turning toward opentherm control, and system filters. I've just ordered a Sentinal Eliminator after much agonising between TF1 vs MB3. I guess time will tell if I made the right decision!

Just wondering what made you plump for the Atag over the Intergas? I'm having the same dilema but have got wind of the new Intergas HReco Combi, life is too complicated enough!

Firstly, my decision was made on research made last Summer through to Autumn... I was not aware of the HReco when I ordered the Atag last week, otherwise that would have complicated my decision all over again!!! When I search now, I can only find info in Dutch on the HReco, so I guess there is a bit of a delay with good info/reviews hitting the UK about this boiler.

My decision is a calculated gamble; no more, no less. Each boiler has their advantages and disadvantages.

for my last house I picked up a RavenHeat at half list price. It's efficiency was great, lovely stainless heat exchanger... terrible electronics and diverter valve!

I wanted something much more reliable, and stumbled across the Intergas. Frankly I liked the lack of moving parts, and it's simple elegance of design. I was not quite so highly impressed with it's hot-water efficiency. (it's no slouch in DHW, but equally, not earth shattering).

I was also interested in Flue Gas Heat Recovery, but the cost of these units (£600-£700 seemed to outweigh their savings.) Never the less I approached Intergas, and they said their boilers do not support such add-on units.

So into the frame came Atag, as the A325EC had Flue Heat Recovery built in for only around £200-£250 extra over the Intergas boiler. This plus Atag's reputation for buillding excellent boilers seemed to add up well. The disadvantages would be the sheer size of this boiler (for a domestic combi anyway)... you wouldn't want it hanging on your kitchen wall! Also the fact that it has a diverter with secondary heat exchanger etc just like the majority of combi's out there, so a fair bit more to go wrong with it than the Intergas.

Sister-in law just had an intergas fitted before christmas, and on balance, I've opted for the Atag, but it was really a very close decision!

My missus tends to like to fill the kitchen sink up regularly, and my 12 yr old son likes to hang around in the shower... The Atag will give me 15 litres of water a minute for a fraction more gas burnt than the Intergas takes to deliver 13 litres... Not a massive difference, but a 10% saving on DHW every time someone runs the hot tap!

I am rellying of course, on the Atag being reliable for me, and not costing a fortune in spare parts over ten to fifteen years, otherwise my experiment will have potentially back-fired! (although advice on here seems to indicate the Wilo pumps used on the intergas are not so reliable. whether this is right or not I do not know!)

So wish me luck, and ask me in a decade wether I think I've made the right decision!

 

[sadanorakman]

removed.

 

[sadanorakman]

Would you be so kind to let me know by PM who you are going to get to install it? I don't know of any ATAG installers here

The RGI I had for my last house was a great guy, but terribly unreliable at turning up. I was then recommended a local RGI by my father in law, who had serviced his boiler for years. This guy is an Intergas gold installer, but not Atag trained. He is however a cracking guy whom I can trust. (already fitted a new fire for me). I guess therefore I won't be getting the extended warranty on the Atag.

I appreciate that for those RGI's that post on here, it is your livelyhood, your career, and the majority don't like to take a boiler fit unless you can take care of the whole job. I'm just afraid that doesn't fit in with my rational.

I am a time-served mechanical and electronic engineer, and can turn, mill, fabricate, weld, grind etc. I do not choose to pay good money for someone else to plumb radiators, when I can turn out a neater job because I have the luxury of twice the time to spend on it. e.g. I can hire a power flusher for £60 and spend a day doing it to my heart's content, where as I might get charged £200 for someone else to do it, who will have one eye on the clock and be gone in a couple of hours.

So by agreement, my RGI will hang the boiler on the wall, fit the flue, route the gas, and commission the system. I will pay him well for this work, plus I'll give him my old boiler, as things like it's gas-valve are valuable to him as service items as they are no longer available.

I however will be plumbing all of the water-side, which is rather considerable, as I am migrating from a very old vented system with ancient DHW tank. The boiler is also moving location. Some new radiators, changing from a single-pipe to a dual-pipe configuration, TRV's on all but one, an automatic bypass-valve to be fitted. I have re-fitted my kitchen already and installed 10mm pipe for the hot water, to halve the dead-water capacity of this pipe run... I will be doing something similar for the bathroom, in preparation of re-fitting my bathroom (Next major job).

Please don't read this as me being sniffy... I genuinely can't afford to pay a couple of grand for a professional to do all of this work for me, and am perfectly capable of performing a more than competant job myself. I take great pride and satisfaction from the process too.

I thoroughly appreciate the advice and experience of people like Dan on this forum... an example of someone who is clearly both knowledgeable, but also passionate about what he does, and happy to share experience and opinion.

 

[dmdm272]

Hi, hope you see this, I looked at the sedbuk site (as was) and the ATAG 325 ECX you mention only got 69.3% hot water efficiency in any case!

The intergas got 62.1%
WB 30Si and Vaillant ET plus got 75% and 74.4% respectively.

most confusing...and they acheive this without the flue heat recovery?

I'm trying to decide between WB and Vaillant as the popular "safe" choice and the ATAG/Intergas as the "wildcard" to try to get the most reliable boiler but it all starts to get very confusing very quickly!

 

[sadanorakman]

Hi, hope you see this, I looked at the sedbuk site (as was) and the ATAG 325 ECX you mention only got 69.3% hot water efficiency in any case!

The intergas got 62.1%
WB 30Si and Vaillant ET plus got 75% and 74.4% respectively.

most confusing...and they acheive this without the flue heat recovery?

I'm trying to decide between WB and Vaillant as the popular "safe" choice and the ATAG/Intergas as the "wildcard" to try to get the most reliable boiler but it all starts to get very confusing very quickly!

Hi, I received an email notification to say someone had replied to my last post, so here I am again!!!

The sedbuk DHW figures are synthetic, meaning that they are not directly measured, but instead calculated based upon other boiler measurements. They are so synthetic in fact, that it allows sedbuk to state a comparative DHW performance for a system boiler!!!

They must also in some way be normalized as they state it is a ‘comparative’ efficiency. If this is like their figures on the Central Heating aspect of the boiler, then this will also be adjusted for seasonal efficiency to give an annual average, e.g. in the winter you might be heating water from 5 degrees to 50 degrees (Delta of 45), yet in summer you might be only heating it from 15 degrees to 50 degrees (Delta of only 35).

I’ve downloaded each of the manufacturer’s installation manuals, and compared their own stated amount of gas burn verses their own stated amount of hot water produced. The details are below:

Intergas Combi Compact HRE 36/30:
DHW Gas input: 32.7kW, DHW Flow at 35 Degree delta: 13 liters per minute
Which is 2.52 kW per liter of water heated by 35 degrees. (32.7/13)

Vaillant Eco-Tec Plus 831 (VUW GB 316/5-5)
DHW Gas input:31.2kW, DHW Flow at 35 Degree delta: 12.4 liters per minute
Which is 2.52 kW per liter of water heated by 35 degrees. (31.2/12.4)

Vaillant Eco-Tec Plus 837 (VUW GB 376/5-5)
DHW Gas input: 39.2kW, DHW Flow at 35 Degree delta: 15.6 liters per minute
Which is 2.51 kW per liter of water heated by 35 degrees. (39.2/15.6)

Atag A325ECX:
DHW Gas input: 34.2kW, DHW Flow at 35 Degree delta: 15 liters per minute
Which is 2.28 kW per liter of water heated by 35 degrees. (34.2/15)

This puts the Intergas and Ecotec’s on a very very even par with one another, with the Atag using some 9.5% LESS gas to heat the same amount of water! (100/2.52*2.28 = 90.48% Gas burnt by the Atag in comparison to the other two)


WB 30si :
Because of WB stated figures, I have to convert cubic meters of gas to kW.
A stated 3.24 cubic meters of gas consumed per hour maximum, translates to between 36.2 and 36.8kW depending upon how it’s calculated, being burnt at full flow (which seems plausible) , for a stated DHW flow of 14.3 liters per minute but at only a stated 30 degree increase, NOT a 35 degree increase.

If roughly normalised to 35 degree heat increase instead of 30 degrees, this equates to:

3.00 kW per liter of water Which is 20% more gas burnt than the Intergas or Vaillant.

I’m disregarding this value, as surely it can’t be correct / OR CAN IT?b]


The gas saver module in my Atag does not seem to specifically store water, which means it can only instantaneously heat the water that flows through it when the boiler is delivering DHW. It just seems to behave as though the boiler had a larger primary heat exchanger, giving a greater total effective surface area between hot gasses and the water. In other words, I think it adds useful extra efficiency for long draw offs like a shower or running a bath, but is probably substantially less effective for very short draw-offs such as washing your hands or filling a small basin or bowl. External gas saver units can store larger amounts of water, which would be usefully pre-heated when for example the central heating is burning.

Dan Robinson is well respected and experienced RGI on this forum. He was pretty dismissive of the Sedbuk efficiency ratings earlier on in this conversation, and if I remember correctly, he was suggesting that even the most efficient boiler will not have anywhere its stated efficiency if installed or operated incorrectly. This has become more apparent to me the more I think about the subject and all of the *many* variables concerned.

I believe the Sedbuk ratings are firstly only plus or minus 2% in accuracy, so a boiler quoted as 88% efficient may well be just as good as one quoted as 90%.

Furthermore, the SEDBUK testing regime quotes:
Comparative hot water efficiency

‘The purpose of this is to present a fair comparison between the water heating performance of boilers of different types (both regular and combi). The comparative hot water efficiency is not needed for SAP, and is not the same as the result from the European test standard for measuring the water heating performance of gas combis. If hot water performance is of particular concern then the comparative hot water efficiency can be used as a guide to annual average hot water efficiency’

When my 13 yr old son is loafing about in the shower too long, I am much less fraught at feeling less gas is being wasted!

As always, feedback and thoughts welcomed from all. I’m always happy to be told I’m wrong!
Regards
Craig