Bay Window - Naive first time buyer

[Firsttimebuyer1992]

Hi there,
I’m a newbie so please be gentle! My boyfriend and I bought a late 1930’s house in september and very naively (read stupidly) only got a basic survey because nothing looked untoward with the house (lesson learnt). Nearly six months later and I’m having a nervous moment about our bay window. It’s two stories and when we moved in had the cracks in my album and shown here (bay window on my profile) but I have only just noticed the external cracks to the mortar. I have generalised anxiety disorder so sometimes struggle to separate what is actually a problem and what is nothing to worry about. The cracking to the external mortar seems to be the areas that catch the most rain and stay damp the longest, if that helps. We do not have any interior damp problems (that I have found yet!). Basic survey said house had suffered from structural movement but historic and non-progressive. Any wisdom would be gratefully appreciated, I’m terrified because we don’t have thousands in the bank to sort it out thank you in advance

 

[Doggit]

Bay windows can be notorious for sagging, but that doesn't mean they aren't okay. You could get the outside mortar repointed, and then keep an eye on it for further cracks. Do the windows open easily, or do the catch, and do you know how long ago the windows were installed. Is there any cracking internally upstairs.

 

[Firsttimebuyer1992]

Thanks for replying Doggit! Both windows either side of the bay open and close no problems no resistance. Upstairs is unfortunately covered in Agylpta wallpaper and insulation boarded under the bay so I have no view of any cracking. Windows themselves are installed awfully (yet another gift from not having an independent survey) but do open and close with no problems- installed more than 12 years ago. I hope this helps

 

[dishman]

I would not worry too much. They look like typical cracks you would expect to find around a bay.

It is a 1930s property, minor cracks from movement are something you should expect.

Around the bay is a common area to get some movement and cracking, you should see mine .

You also have to remember that you have had the bay window replaced in the past with upvc. Not only will the actual replacement have cause some movement, but how it all settles afterwards will end up causing light movement and cracks.

An issue can arise as per @Doggit. The original windows may have been structural i.e the wooden frames supported the bay. Sometimes upvc firms cut corners and did not put re-enforced upvc windows in. UPVC is not designed to take any weight from above.

If they are opening and closing fine, then this suggests they have been re-enforced and are not sagging under the weight. Especially when they have been in 12 years. I would expect more signs of bowing frames and stuck windows by now.

My bay has the original timber windows, and they still have movement cracks.

 

[Doggit]

If there was a serious problem with the bay, then it'd be the edges of the bay where it joins the front wall where you'd see the cracks, not necessarily in the corners of it. If the windows were installed 2 years ago, and they open and close easily, then I'd say you can stop worrying.

 

[Firsttimebuyer1992]

Thank you so much both for your advice- I will sleep a little more soundly tonight I may look at repointing once we’ve had summer just to ensure no water’s going to get in.

 

[Notch7]

I cant see much wrong, theres no cracking where the bay brickwork meets the house. The bricks arent cracking just a few mortar joints.

Internally the plaster has cracked at the joints, but since the outside is veryical tile hanging, I expect the wall between the ground and 1st floor is ti ber studwork, so a bit of movement is to be expected.

Its impossible to know if the window was fitted correctly with bay poles and lintel above but the lack of any signs of real movement or saggjng would suggest al, is ok.

Its not the prettiest bay window

 

[dishman]

Also, when you get it repointed, ensure you do not get it done with a really hard modern gray cement.

The mortar on a property of that age was designed to be a lot softer and more water permeable than the brickwork.

People do not realise that the mortar is designed to break, and require re-pointing at some point, it is designed to protect the brickwork.

On some older properties you can see when it has been re-pointed with a modern super hard cement. The water can no longer escape via capillary action through the mortar and the face of the brickwork will end up spalling (the front deteriorates).

 

[Firsttimebuyer1992]

Thanks Dishman- there are some terrible example of repointing bay windows in a neighbourhood near mine and I would dread for ours to look like that! I’m hoping to get the whole thing replastered internally next year and will be ensuring I’m getting it done with a lime mix rather than gypsum because of the age of the house

 

[dishman]

Although it was probably originally done in a lime mix, due to convention at the time. Using a lime based plaster these days is normally done/recommended on a property with only a single skin of brickwork (no cavity). This is because gypsum has a tendency to draw in moisture/water. So it would not work well on a single skin wall which can be more prone to damp/moisture.

Your wall looks to be a cavity wall. It also looks to have been insulated as I can see a plug (although that could be something else) in one of the pictures you posted where they may have blown in in the insulation.

You may find re-skimming with a lime plaster (limelite is a brand I have heard of) or taking it back completely and re-doing with a a lime plaster could be hugely more expensive. You may also need to find a good plasterer (probably more expensive) trained to use a lime plaster.

If you are just re-skimming, you may find no issues with gypsum on a property of that age and it will probably be a lot cheaper.

Try the plasterers forum nearer the time. This is just what I have learnt myself over the years. Not professional experience, so some may have a differing opinion.

 

[^woody^]

That house is not old enough for a lime mix.Normal plaster will do, with fibre tape over the cracks.

The cracking both internal and external is more like that from normal and common shrinkage than that from movement.

If anything, the stone cills may want looking at, as there appears to be dampness (and white salts) on the wall just below them. Cills should cast water off away from the wall. Damp walls give rise to salt staining and can also cause the shrinkage cracking from getting wet and drying out. Check the cill joints and that there is a drip (groove) on the underside and its not blocked or bridged.

If the cills are OK have the bricks repointed. But that in itself will be a challenge to find someone able to do it properly and neatly and unobtrusively.

It looks like there is blown cavity insulation there, so it's important to keep it as dry as possible so deal with any cracks and excessive damp promptly.

 

[Firsttimebuyer1992]

Thanks Woody that’s a very good point- the cill is definitely not doing it’s job at current protecting the brick and as i said the damage to the mortar directly correlates with the areas where the cill is failing and allowing the brick to get wet and stay wet. Do you know what kind of ballpark costs I’m looking at for cill work? No worries if not, just cautious not to get ripped off if I call someone out to have a look. Also could you possibly identify where you can see evidence of blown cavity insulation? I only ask because I inherited a 25 year cavity wall insulation guarantee with the house (no idea how enforceable it would be!)

 

[Notch7]

'Blown' is the type of insulation, not a description of a fault!

Evidence of blown mineral fibre installation is the drill holes in the brickwork.

 

[Firsttimebuyer1992]

Ohh thanks Notch7, sorry I’m new to this, and dealt with so much blown plaster in the last five months I jump to the worst

 

[^woody^]

Do you know what kind of ballpark costs I’m looking at for cill work

Someone will have to mess about with it for 1/2 a day or so. So whatever the day rates are near you. Get quotes.

But you will need someone with a full clue, not just half or a no-clue chancer.