BEST YOUVE FOUND

[CheshireDecorators]

Hi guys/girls ,

Now we are getting thrown into the waterbased paint because of oil yellowing so quick, what are the best you've found?? I'm yet to use Sikkens waterbased but that's meant to be really good. Mine are as follows-

Eggshell - Little Green 8/10

Satin - Johnstone's 7/10

Gloss - Johnstone's 5/10

Ive been using all different WB products of late (non compare to oil) my problems are -

In most cases need 3coats

You need to be quick as the edge dries to fast and flashes.

You need to take your time and try to leave no brush marks but seems impossible

Caulk crazes through the paint

Just intrested in everyones view, I've been painting and decorating for many years and feel like paint has gone backwards.

 

[dcdec]

Really appreciate your feedback on this as it gets expensive trying all these different paints. Would be nice if the manufacturers could throw a few free samples our way wouldn't it.

I think you have yet to try the best of the lot which is the Sikkens, i've used the BL primer u/c and the BL satura, both are very good, stays open well and providing you use a decent synthetic brush brushmarks arn't a problem. As i've mentioned in previous posts Sikkens are meant to be releasing magura soon which is their gloss finish, for some reason its not available in the UK at the moment.

I'd heard good things about little greens eggshell but yet to try it as i don't get much eggshell work.
Sikkens rubbol paints don't seem to be affected to much by the yellowing, i went back to a house i did in rubbol satura last year and had a good look at it and it seems ok and i've not had any calls from customers complaining.

I now avoid Dulux like the plague because their oil paints are frankly crap and the second reason is they've treated us deccies like morons, their silence on the 2010 debacle is deafening, they have a major problem with oil based paints but still continue to sell it after having released a product to market that wasn't any where near good enough. I now only use their emulsions but am actively seeking an alternative because they are too expensive and like i said plainly dont give a toss about us. It does explain why crown where always number two, Akzo obviously dont know anything about getting things right. I have to be fair and say that it seems most of the paint manufacturers are having yellowing problems but i don't really care about Johnstones or leyland or crown because i dont use them, Dulux was always my first choice in pretty much everything and they've cocked it right up.

I have a sneaky suspicion that this yellowing thing is not going to be put right, they are not going to spend R&D money on products that are coming to the end of their lives, instead the money is going to be thrown at water based/hybrid paints and oil based will become a thing of the past, thats fine by me if there's an alternative at a good price, the Dulux range does not, all their water based finishes and u/c's are beyond useless and its the same with alot of manufacturers but i really would have expected more from the UK's leading paint manufacturer. Idiots.

 

[malshep]

Cheshire,
Have you tried Floetrol (made by Owatrol)? Claimed by them to extend the wet-edge time and also improve the coverage (ie reduce need for 3rd coat).

"opps" swears by it. I've bought some but realised it's too expensive to use in emulsion paint and have yet to try it in water-based trim paint (I use Crown Solo for glossing).

Must be worth a try as you don't seem happy with the results you're currently getting!
http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/...-paint-conditioner-for-water-based-paints.asp

 

[CheshireDecorators]

Hi is that product available from any supply shops or just online? Ive never herd of it and it sounds just the job, do you just ad a cap full to the paint?
Ive been using waterbased for a couple of months and just don't rate it! Try painting a flush door when its red hot doesn't give a nice finish! I hope to god they keep oil for exteriors!

 

[CheshireDecorators]

Dcdec- I've totally stopped using any Dulux products and have done fir a year or so! Problem after problem! Johnstone's is among the best now in my opinion! I'll try that sikkens soon as I get chance. Ive also try'd zinsser perma white that's no Better than what I've already mentioned! In my opinion if your doing eggshell use the little Greene if your using satin use Johnstone's (3coats im afraid but best I've found) gloss just avoid if possible!

 

[TheDec]

Not always readily available, if you have a Brewers near you they sell it, these products although rather expensive have an invaluable part to play within the trade. Owatrol oil for example as a stand alone product can seal and prevent the formation of rust, and has the ability to seal open grained timber prior to the application of a paint system.

Dec

 

[CheshireDecorators]

Dec
that product really looks the part, im buying that but will have to buy online as there's not one brewers in Cheshire!! the one for oil is a big + as it mentions about red gloss helps it cover, red can be a pig so for that reason alone its worth it

 

[malshep]

Hi. Ive never heard of that product and it sounds just the job: do you just add a capful to the paint?

Unfortunately the instructions talk about an addition of 10%. Since Floetrol is approx £18/litre and Sikkens BL Satura is £16/litre then where's the problem, if it: a) improves the finish OR b) enables 2 coats instead of 3.

The costs with emulsion are different. If you're paying £2-£3/litre (eg Wickes contract) then add 10% of a liquid at £18/litre, this virtually doubles the cost of the liquid. "opps" recommended Floetrol for brush cutting-in only. So you would have a kettle of cutting-in emulsion (Floetrol added) and a separate tray of emulsion (without Floetrol) for the roller.

As "TheDec" says, Brewers do sell Floetrol but at £22/litre or more (you may have a trade discount, I don't) so the online price of £18/litre is probably as good as you're going to get it.

 

[TheDec]

Well there really should not be a need to add Floetrol to an emulsion paint, it is more apt to be used with the water based acrylics and this is apparent in both paint and varnish applications. Yet over usage can tend to dull the sheen of acrylic gloss systems.

Dec

 

[joe-90]

I don't see the point in these additives. If they were needed they'd be added by the manufacturer. If you can';t get good results without them then you are in the wrong job.

 

[TheDec]

Dec
that product really looks the part, im buying that but will have to buy online as there's not one brewers in Cheshire!! the one for oil is a big + as it mentions about red gloss helps it cover, red can be a pig so for that reason alone its worth it

Cheshire,

Thanks for the reply and you of course you are correct in what you say, the reds are indeed the hardest of the colours to produce a good finish. Yet on saying that some of the stronger greens and blues also have the habit of drawing off the brush when laying back.

Dec

 

[jondecs]

I don't see the point in these additives. If they were needed they'd be added by the manufacturer. If you can';t get good results without them then you are in the wrong job.

I asked Dulux Why they Can't add floetrol to w/b ? They said; they were unable to do so as it would destroy the reduction in carbon emmision result during manufacture. What happens when the end user gets it is of no consequence. Dulux boast they are the lowest c/o producer ? Maybe thats why there is a MASSIVE price increase in the pipeline >>october? Not that it will affect me as I shy away from dulux where posssible, not even the allure of a free breakfast kit (wtf) per 10ltr of any dulux will turn me

 

[malshep]

I don't see the point in these additives. If they were needed they'd be added by the manufacturer. If you can';t get good results without them then you are in the wrong job.

The way I think of it is that the manufacturer is trying to achieve (at least) 3 things with his paint:

1) Stay liquid in the can for years (long shelf life)
2) Keep a wet edge for as long as possible
3) Dry to a hard coating as quickly as possible and be overcoatable within hours

To my mind anything the manufacturer does to promote 3) is likely to be completely at odds with requirements 1) and 2). However by using additives immediately prior to painting, the painter has the opportunity to gain control over these three parameters to a degree which the paint manufacturer simply can't achieve.

It's the same difference as 2 part filler compared with a 1 part filler. When the user mixes in curing agent prior to filling he achieves a substance which hardens in minutes. If the manufacturer was to do this at the time of manufacture, the filler would have no useful shelf life!

 

[joe-90]

I don't think you can compare a two part epoxy filler to paint somehow.

 

[malshep]

Oh well - Hopefully other readers will be able to appreciate the general point - that the process of painting involves conflicting requirements:

During the process of brushing, you want the paint to stay wet as long as possible. Afterwards you want it to dry as fast as possible.

A single product out of a tin, no matter how cleverly formulated and expensive, will never achieve everything the user wants. However by mixing in additives at the time of usage, the painter can gain better control of these time related characteristics.