Blown render!! Please Help!

[legs-akimbo]

you asked to see some info to back up my claims J.B. so here you are and an apology over the fact that i was right will be gracefully accepted.

http://www.everbuild.co.uk/categories.php?cID=45&PHPSESSID=22c0eae7eee80eecc69c846e23986d5b

Everbuild products : item 202 waterproofer.

On the back of my 5 gallon tub of waterproofer made by evo stik :

Evo stik waterproofer is a concentrated liquid waterproofer and plasticiser. It provides long term protection against dampness and driving rain. It is suitable for external renderings and as an aid to dry harling,pebble dashing rough casting etc.
In multi coat work use evo plast in every coat at the same ratio ( reference to mix ratios).

Now I do believe that categorically and emphatically puts that one well and truly to bed once and for all.
I do hope no one comes knocking on your door to come and re do their rendering because you omitted to put any waterproofer in your gauge. If indeed you have ever done any.

hey legs i read it then read it but still cant find were it says Quote "In multi coat work use evo plast in every coat at the same ratio ( reference to mix ratios)." if its on the back of the tub im sure they would put it on the link, it might be on there i just cant find it. It doesnt mention scratch coat or top coat, surely there not saying mix the scratch coat and top coat the same

I should have been clearer. While doing a search I came across the reference to waterproofer produced by ever build and it states its uses within the pdf. I made a search for waterproofer made by Evostik, which is the waterproofer I use, who are actually Bostk but could find nothing on them, try yourself you may have more luck. Therefor I went out in the ****ing rain last night and got a drum of waterproofer and read, then quoted what it says on the back. Now I am either lieing or it is fact. If I was wrong I would readily admit the fact.

Well Well well...i have just gone into my van and got out my tub of pva made by bond it ( Elland road west yorkshire) In the gumph on the back it states many uses and advises the ratios for dilution for uses with cements, plasters, powdered wall fillers, general household repairs, textiles, crafts and light duty wood adhesive.
It " and read this carefully J bonding as it is you and you alone that advises to read the back of the tub" under a heading stated as LIMITATIONS It says and I quote In bold letters : DO NOT USE IN AREAS WHERE PERMANENT DAMPNESS IS LIKELY> DO NOT USE ON NEW CEMENT WHEN CEMENT HAS NOT FULLY CURED OR ON SURFACE TEMPERATURES BELOW FIVE DEGREES

Now that is what it says and is in stark contrast to what you tell us it says. Now once again I could be lieing but if you want me to post up a photo of the back of the tub then I will gladly. I agree fully with Freddie the pva would still be present despite cleaning.

 

[jbonding]

im not saying your lying, i would just like solid proof ie scratch coat and top coat with a waterproofer for all conditions. if you want limitation ie waterproofer AREAS OF USE
LIMITATIONSs * Do not use in structural concrete.
* Not intended as a DPC replacement. Will not withstand permanent hydrostatic pressure.
* For tanking applications, use in conjunction with EVERBUILD DPM EMULSION
* Note: does not repell water. If a water repellent finish is required, coat render/screed etc with EVERBUILD
DEFENDER WATERSEAL. forget the word waterproof.
ive just gone to the van to get mine,lol sealobond (sealocrete)
RENDERING AND PLASTERING: mix with water to recomended dilution rate (see below)apply priming coat and allow to dry.follow with a bonding coat and apply render or plaster before this coat dries.


PRIMING BEFORE TILING: mix with water to recommended dilution (see below) apply priming coat to surface to be tiled and allow to dry.
theres a section on dustproofing concrete,repairs to concrete,brickwork and stone,cement admixture,sealing and as an adhesive for wood to wood or other porous materials such as hardboard,insulating boards and expanded polystyrene, please note it will not bond two impervious surfaces ie PVC,rubber and poythene.DO NOT USE IN DAMP CONDITIONS.PROTECT FROM FROST. Now it must of had more written on the tub than limitations what ive been asking you for is its uses i hope this helps.

DILUTION RATES
Priming coat:1 part pva to 5 part water
bonding coat:1-3
guaging mix: 1-1

 

[Freddie]

pva is glue

 

[jbonding]

Wood doesnt split when wet it's the drying process which does that---the pva glue fails when it gets damp--the wall i refer too was taken off as a precaution due to extreme frost--no render failiure it was only a plinth of 3 blocks high.

When skimming there is minimal water in skim so the underlying wall can only get damp which as dj i think it was explained and it controls the sucktion of the skim to prevent it drying on the interior wall.

An exterior wall has to be hosed down before work starts and there could be gallons of water in the render----many many many many more times the amount of water used in interior skimming of walls thus what chance would pva/unibond have in outside conditions--plus also the moisture content of interior masonary would be around 6% exterior walls would be in the region of 25% plus---all this is self explanitary to the dumbest of people so i cant understand jbonding why you cant quite grasp it.

Also can you tell me when you do any plastering as you always seem to be on here and must be yhe only plasterer with a laptop instead of a spot

"the wall i refer too was taken off as a precaution due to extreme frost--no render failure" elaborate.
why is there a reference to rendering on the side of the pva?
what does the reference say?
do you think they put it on just to fill in the spaces?
will waterproofer waterproof your wall?
how does the water get out after its passed the waterproofer?
whats the problem mixing scratch coat and top coat the same?
im the boss so i work out the hours

 

[nlrashia]

Good evening.
Very happy to discover site as I am renovating my old house in NL. I have heard alarming stories of "don't use cement render" etc
How do I know if the render which is falling off my house is cement / lime? Is lime render white and soft?
If I have cement render should I worry about it (house age 1770, walls = brick)
Thankyou anyone who can advise

 

[jbonding]

Is lime render white and soft? it might be pva,lol.

 

[Freddie]

pva is glue

 

[legs-akimbo]

Am I missing something here J bonding : You state rendering and plastering with your sealobond and as you yourself state " follow with a bonding coat and apply render or plaster"............Now Pleeeeease dont tell me that you can use bonding and plaster outside!!!
I can only assume that when you read references to render you are under the impression that this is a referal to external applications only, has it occured to you that a render coat also applies to internal work, hence the references on tubs of pva are indded intended as a guide for render "floating" as in float and set.
I have just dug out another tub of pva made by evostik and following the usual gumph the detail ends in EVOBOND IS NOT SUITABLE FOR EXTERNAL SOLUTIONS So that is two tubs of pva both stateing what everyone else has allready told you, surely its time to be humble enough to admit you have got it wrong.
All the info you have on your pva I have on mine but again theese refer to internal applications as the simple paragraph of "DO NOT USE EXTERNALLY is clear concise and all encompassing.

You say you are asking me for its uses ? Do you mean pva and what I use it for?

You want solid proof about external waterproofer. I think I have convinced every man and his dog beyond repute by quoting the Irish guidance document, the fact that I as an experienced plasterer am familiar with the methods employed in rendering externally, dealing with engineers that insist on checking that renders are correct and adhereing to specifications given to me to work to, as well as stateing the instructions from the product of a multi billion turnover manufacturer of waterproofer, well if that aint proof enough just exactly what do you want.

 

[legs-akimbo]

J bonding you clearly didnt read page two of the link I provided which states " EXTERNAL WATERPROOFER RENDERS" Apply render 18mm to 20mm thick in two coats. I think it safe to assume this would refer to all applications as it would state otherwise quite obviously.

 

[Freddie]

pva is glue

 

[legs-akimbo]

Now its your turn J.B to give me a quoted reference to a specific application for pva in an external only use! maybe the one you advised upon, where anywhere on any manufacturers guides does it give an example of this FOR ANY EXTERNAL PURPOSE

Tell me then J.B. seeing as you are the unbusiest plasterer in the United Kingdom is that maybe because you work the night shift.

 

[-dj-]

just a note to the origional poster, i think it has been commented twice that you probably didn't remove all of the pva from your wall and this is probably why it failed a second time. my post now is just to also confirm that this is probably the reason it failed. if it fails again then i think i would be inclined to knock the bu99er down and start again, or fix eml all over so then you will have something for your render to hold on to.

oh and did anyone mention that you shouldn't pva external walls before rendering

dj.

 

[jbonding]

Wood doesnt split when wet it's the drying process which does that---the pva glue fails when it gets damp--the wall i refer too was taken off as a precaution due to extreme frost--no render failiure it was only a plinth of 3 blocks high.

When skimming there is minimal water in skim so the underlying wall can only get damp which as dj i think it was explained and it controls the sucktion of the skim to prevent it drying on the interior wall.

An exterior wall has to be hosed down before work starts and there could be gallons of water in the render----many many many many more times the amount of water used in interior skimming of walls thus what chance would pva/unibond have in outside conditions--plus also the moisture content of interior masonary would be around 6% exterior walls would be in the region of 25% plus---all this is self explanitary to the dumbest of people so i cant understand jbonding why you cant quite grasp it.

Also can you tell me when you do any plastering as you always seem to be on here and must be yhe only plasterer with a laptop instead of a spot

why is there a reference to rendering on the side of the pva?
what does the reference say?
do you think they put it on just to fill in the spaces?
will waterproofer waterproof your wall?
how does the water get out after its passed the waterproofer?
whats the problem mixing scratch coat and top coat the same?
im the boss so i work out the hours

I just found a tin of Durabond pva sealer/adhesive i have--and it DOES mention concrete--floor screeds --and sand cement render------It DOES NOT say anywhere on the tin about using it in EXTERIOR OR CONTINUALLY DAMP CONDITIONS. and render or hardwall sand/cement is used extensively on interior walls. and after using this stuff for many years and seeing problems with people trying to use it in such places i would challenge anybody to say it will stick tons of render or help in any way to stick tons of render in an exterior or continually damp situation.

As regards waterproofer i again would like you to answer my previous question which i will again ask----you say no waterproofer in finish coats only in scratch coat because of the chance of frost blowing in the situation you describe---my question the same rule would apply to your scratch coat if water got behind that onto the wall thus blowing the lot off so surely as many coats of render on the wall they should have waterproofer in to lesson any chance of water penertration---so how can you say only scratch coat?

Waterproofer doesnt waterproof the wall but allows the penertration of onlly a few millimeters, it doesnt allow full penertration on to the actual wall.--as i said before many times your exterior wall is very damp--one reason why you have a wall cavity and your interior wall very dry--your exterior wall will be roughly the same moisture content of the surrounding air---NOT SUITABLE FOR PVA GLUES one reason why you wouldnt use them on garden furniture and other outside things.

Once moisture or water has penertrated into the wall finish or even brickwork in a brickwork situ the wall would gradually dry with the surrounding conditions which is WHY you always have a wall cavity and houses without are always damper.

where does it refer to indoor use only?
you dont get it ive never said it will stick tons of render the key ie raking out or eml, the pva can be used to seal the dust and control suction.a waterproofer in your scratch coat and none in your top coat or a waterproofer in both coats, lets compare the two. its ****ing down for days against a rendered wall. severe rain will soak through the top coat on either one. no water proofer in the top coat will soak in water and dry OUT, like you say it might reach the scratch coat but driving rain wont. waterproofer in the top coat is under severe rain condition the water will pass through but cannot readily pass OUT so were does it go? Quote freddie "Once moisture or water has penertrated into the wall finish or even brickwork in a brickwork situ the wall would gradually dry with the surrounding conditions which is WHY you always have a wall cavity and houses without are always damper.[/quote does that includ FREEZING conditions.

 

[jbonding]

J bonding you clearly didnt read page two of the link I provided which states " EXTERNAL WATERPROOFER RENDERS" Apply render 18mm to 20mm thick in two coats. I think it safe to assume this would refer to all applications as it would state otherwise quite obviously.

safe to assume my arse. i read this bit and it doesnt mention putting the waterproofer in scratch or top coat it tells you the thickness thats all.

 

[jbonding]

Am I missing something here J bonding : You state rendering and plastering with your sealobond and as you yourself state " follow with a bonding coat and apply render or plaster"............Now Pleeeeease dont tell me that you can use bonding and plaster outside!!!
I can only assume that when you read references to render you are under the impression that this is a referal to external applications only, has it occured to you that a render coat also applies to internal work, hence the references on tubs of pva are indded intended as a guide for render "floating" as in float and set.
I have just dug out another tub of pva made by evostik and following the usual gumph the detail ends in EVOBOND IS NOT SUITABLE FOR EXTERNAL SOLUTIONS So that is two tubs of pva both stateing what everyone else has allready told you, surely its time to be humble enough to admit you have got it wrong.
All the info you have on your pva I have on mine but again theese refer to internal applications as the simple paragraph of "DO NOT USE EXTERNALLY is clear concise and all encompassing.

You say you are asking me for its uses ? Do you mean pva and what I use it for?

You want solid proof about external waterproofer. I think I have convinced every man and his dog beyond repute by quoting the Irish guidance document, the fact that I as an experienced plasterer am familiar with the methods employed in rendering externally, dealing with engineers that insist on checking that renders are correct and adhereing to specifications given to me to work to, as well as stateing the instructions from the product of a multi billion turnover manufacturer of waterproofer, well if that aint proof enough just exactly what do you want.

youve done a lot of quoting and miss quoting show us the document . re. no waterproofer in scratch, or school glue on concrete block) i take it you added this to the big document you are joking when you say no waterproofer in the scratch coat. dont give us the end of the tub and theres nowhere on my tub it says dont use externally.