I have got a few 8" ceiling speakers and i've got a wall faceplate with aux input either with 3.5mm audio jack or a phono lead. Question is, do I need some sort of amp between the aux input faceplate and the speakers? I assume I cannot just take the aux input directly to the left and right connection of the speakers as this wont provide any power to the speakers. What sort of device would I need to introduce between the aux jack and the speakers?
Ceiling speakers to audio output device.
- Thread starter john2k
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an amplifier. Do you not have one already somewhere in the system or are you putting in something new?
I basically want to connect the optical output from my tv which is on the wall to a few ceiling speakers. The speakers are already in the ceiling and have black and red wires come to the wall where the tv is mounted. I am thinking to buy a optical to RCA converter that runs from the USB power of the tv. And then from the RCA output of the optical converter connect to the following pictured sort of amp. But my main concern would be is it ok to leave the amp running 24hrs a day 7 days a week as it will be installed hidden away.
The amp will probably be fine. It's the power supply you'll have to watch out for.
These little Class D amps are cheap but they don't deliver on their promises. The power ratings are hopelessly optimistic even when powered by a good transformer (PSU) several times the cost of the amp. Spend £25-£30 on a decent 12V 5A PSU and you'll get about 8W per channel in to 8 Ohms before distortion really starts to kick in. With the cheap (and potentially dangerous) wall wart transformers some come supplied with then you'll be lucky to get 4W/Ch before the PSU runs out of steam and the amp starts to distort.
If you're planning on running "several" speakers then you need something far more capable. Subject to how many speakers you have and how they're wired together then the impedance (Ohms) could go very high or very low. There are ways and means to keep the impedance to a reasonable level but there are no free rides. Dividing the power between lots of speakers means less power for each speaker.
Before you go launch in to buying amps though you need to give a bit of thought to how you're going to control the volume with the amp hidden away. The Optical signal doesn't vary in level with the volume control; it is fixed. Even if the TV speaker volume is turned all the way down the optical signal still outputs at its normal level. This means that you need something in between the the TV and the speakers to control the volume. Most of us in the home cinema world use an amplifier with remote control.
Given that the as-yet-unspecified number of speakers are going to need something with a bit more juice, and that you have a requirement for remote control, I think you should be looking at a proper amplifier or home cinema amp. The catch of course is size. The little digital amps are tiny, and even a mini Hi-Fi unit such as a Denon DM40 is considerably bigger.
These little Class D amps are cheap but they don't deliver on their promises. The power ratings are hopelessly optimistic even when powered by a good transformer (PSU) several times the cost of the amp. Spend £25-£30 on a decent 12V 5A PSU and you'll get about 8W per channel in to 8 Ohms before distortion really starts to kick in. With the cheap (and potentially dangerous) wall wart transformers some come supplied with then you'll be lucky to get 4W/Ch before the PSU runs out of steam and the amp starts to distort.
If you're planning on running "several" speakers then you need something far more capable. Subject to how many speakers you have and how they're wired together then the impedance (Ohms) could go very high or very low. There are ways and means to keep the impedance to a reasonable level but there are no free rides. Dividing the power between lots of speakers means less power for each speaker.
Before you go launch in to buying amps though you need to give a bit of thought to how you're going to control the volume with the amp hidden away. The Optical signal doesn't vary in level with the volume control; it is fixed. Even if the TV speaker volume is turned all the way down the optical signal still outputs at its normal level. This means that you need something in between the the TV and the speakers to control the volume. Most of us in the home cinema world use an amplifier with remote control.
Given that the as-yet-unspecified number of speakers are going to need something with a bit more juice, and that you have a requirement for remote control, I think you should be looking at a proper amplifier or home cinema amp. The catch of course is size. The little digital amps are tiny, and even a mini Hi-Fi unit such as a Denon DM40 is considerably bigger.
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Lucid, many thanks for that great response. It makes so much sense now. I didnt even think about the issue with the volume from the optical output. Didnt realise that the volume was independent. Is there any compact system? I am looking to install only 2 ceiling speakers on the ceiling in the bedroom. I can put a volume control 1G box of some kind.
I've seen the following kit used in small office rooms: http://www.kpms.co.uk/index.php?p=5&pid=634
It contains 2 speakers and a single 1G in-wall volume control with a 3.5mm auxillary input. The sound quality on these are good enough for what I want. But I do not want to use the speakers that it comes with and wondering do you think I can just connect normal ceiling speakers to the actual 1G wall unit? Is the wall unit the Amp itself?
It contains 2 speakers and a single 1G in-wall volume control with a 3.5mm auxillary input. The sound quality on these are good enough for what I want. But I do not want to use the speakers that it comes with and wondering do you think I can just connect normal ceiling speakers to the actual 1G wall unit? Is the wall unit the Amp itself?
Also, is there a way of possibly adding a 1G volume control to an existing hifi output. I've come across a few cheap second-hand Denon hifi systems that have audio in and 2 speaker output. I am thinking I can use this but as I am planning to put the hifi in the loft, is there a way to channel the output through a volume controller and then back up to the ceiling speakers?
I'll let Lucid answer this but a note about lofts:
Loft space temperatures in the UK can vary between - 10°C in winter and +40°c in summer. Most equipment won't last long.
Also read Lucid's previous answers about Ceiling Speakers in this forum section.
Loft space temperatures in the UK can vary between - 10°C in winter and +40°c in summer. Most equipment won't last long.
Also read Lucid's previous answers about Ceiling Speakers in this forum section.
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Also need to think about impedance depending on how many and how the speakers in the ceiling are connected.
Does anyone know of any computer speaker systems that have an externally mounted volume control? I remember seeing one a while back. If I can get one of these then I can mount the speakers in the ceiling with a grille to give it a nice look and then run the external volume controller somewhere easily accessible.
For example something like this: http://www.staples.co.uk/speakers/c...999&Effort_Code=WW&Find_Number=297856472&mT=0
I think this might potentially do the job. I don't need it to be super loud but just to provide extra sound.
Therefore I can essentially mount these on the ceiling, and bring the audio controls down to a easily accessibly area.
For example something like this: http://www.staples.co.uk/speakers/c...999&Effort_Code=WW&Find_Number=297856472&mT=0
I think this might potentially do the job. I don't need it to be super loud but just to provide extra sound.
Therefore I can essentially mount these on the ceiling, and bring the audio controls down to a easily accessibly area.
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If you start messing around with a succession of little boxes each solving one particular problem then things start to get messy and complicated. The chances of the system working reliably long term diminish considerably. I'd also listen to Sam Gangee's advice about loft temperatures.
Anyway, you're not the first person to face this sort of conundrum. Like most DIY'ers you've got so far in to the projector and hit a bit of a brick wall. What looked like an easy and cheap little project is turning out to be a bit more complex and pricey that you'd first imagined. Where you stand now others have stood in the past, so what I'm about to give you is the collected wisdom based on solving the same issue many times over for others. We are cutting to the chase rather than going all round the houses with the "what abouts" and "what ifs" when someone in your position starts to look at the weird and wonderful gadgets available via the web.
You have four practical solutions:
1) A conventional stereo amp with remote control + a DAC (optical to analogue stereo converter) + IR repeater kit
2) AV receiver (with built in optical input) + IR repeater kit
3) Compact Class D amp with IR control and Optical input + IR repeater kit
4) A simple stereo amp or AV receiver with analogue input + cable to connect the TV headphone output to the amp which then solves the volume control issue
Pros and Cons of each
For solution 1) Cons are cost: You have to find a stereo amp with remote control. That's easy with new gear (at a price) but harder with used gear unless you go for the sort of mini/micro/midi-sized CD/Radio stereo systems rather than a proper 2ch Hi-Fi amp. Size: You'll need to hide the amp somewhere. Cabling: You'll want to carry the signal as optical for as much of the journey as possible to avoid interference, but Optical cables are only available in specific lengths, so you might end up with either too much cable sat in loops or a couple of opticals and a joiner which is a potential weak point. IR kit cable lengths: You might have to spend a bit to get an IR repeater kit where the cables are long enough to cope with the job. Pros are simplicity, audio power (current rather than wattage which is actually more important anyway, but this is only really applicable to proper Hi-Fi amps rather than CD/Radio stereo systems), and potentially in the sound quality, but it's debatable whether you'd hear an appreciable difference in sound quality if the speakers aren't up to it.
For solution 2) Cons are Cabling: The optical cable length. IR kit cable lengths, and possible complexity of the amp (source selection, sound modes etc) when being controlled out of line of sight, and the size. An AV receiver will be the biggest of all the boxes to hide. The Pros are Cost and the Availability of suitable amps. There's a far greater choice of used AV receivers that tick all the boxes than there are Hi-Fi amps. Power - second only to proper 2 channel Hi-Fi amps. Features: The built-in Optical input and DAC removes a potential failure.
For solution 3) the Cons are cost: You won't find many of these on the used market so a new purchase may be the only option. Power: This will be the least powerful of all the options so this amp will be working harder more of the time and that affects long-term reliability. It also means you need to exercise discretion with the volume control because distortion kills speakers. Features quality: Despite being fitted with remote control the performance of the IR transmitters in the handsets for these type of budget devices is notoriously poor. The handset will have limited range and a narrow angle where it will work even when the amp is in direct line of sight. The Pros are size and simplicity - one small box which is relatively easy to hide handles optical directly as well as providing power.
For solution 4 the Cons are size again and the technical issues of whether the source TV has a headphone jack and whether the output from it is controlled via the TVs main volume control of a buried sub menu that is harder to access. The other issue is the quality of the cabling. It would be very easy to buy an off-the-shelf audio cable and find that you suffer with hum problems. The reason would be the cable's inadequate shielding. It isn't enough just to have "shielding" without knowing what the design of the shielding actually is. Not all shielding is created equally. Unfortunately very few cable retailers know anything useful about what they're selling apart from a few headline features. This goes equally for high-end sellers as it does for budget cable retailers. If you select #4 as your solution then get in touch and I'll sort you out with the right cabling.
Anyway, you're not the first person to face this sort of conundrum. Like most DIY'ers you've got so far in to the projector and hit a bit of a brick wall. What looked like an easy and cheap little project is turning out to be a bit more complex and pricey that you'd first imagined. Where you stand now others have stood in the past, so what I'm about to give you is the collected wisdom based on solving the same issue many times over for others. We are cutting to the chase rather than going all round the houses with the "what abouts" and "what ifs" when someone in your position starts to look at the weird and wonderful gadgets available via the web.
You have four practical solutions:
1) A conventional stereo amp with remote control + a DAC (optical to analogue stereo converter) + IR repeater kit
2) AV receiver (with built in optical input) + IR repeater kit
3) Compact Class D amp with IR control and Optical input + IR repeater kit
4) A simple stereo amp or AV receiver with analogue input + cable to connect the TV headphone output to the amp which then solves the volume control issue
Pros and Cons of each
For solution 1) Cons are cost: You have to find a stereo amp with remote control. That's easy with new gear (at a price) but harder with used gear unless you go for the sort of mini/micro/midi-sized CD/Radio stereo systems rather than a proper 2ch Hi-Fi amp. Size: You'll need to hide the amp somewhere. Cabling: You'll want to carry the signal as optical for as much of the journey as possible to avoid interference, but Optical cables are only available in specific lengths, so you might end up with either too much cable sat in loops or a couple of opticals and a joiner which is a potential weak point. IR kit cable lengths: You might have to spend a bit to get an IR repeater kit where the cables are long enough to cope with the job. Pros are simplicity, audio power (current rather than wattage which is actually more important anyway, but this is only really applicable to proper Hi-Fi amps rather than CD/Radio stereo systems), and potentially in the sound quality, but it's debatable whether you'd hear an appreciable difference in sound quality if the speakers aren't up to it.
For solution 2) Cons are Cabling: The optical cable length. IR kit cable lengths, and possible complexity of the amp (source selection, sound modes etc) when being controlled out of line of sight, and the size. An AV receiver will be the biggest of all the boxes to hide. The Pros are Cost and the Availability of suitable amps. There's a far greater choice of used AV receivers that tick all the boxes than there are Hi-Fi amps. Power - second only to proper 2 channel Hi-Fi amps. Features: The built-in Optical input and DAC removes a potential failure.
For solution 3) the Cons are cost: You won't find many of these on the used market so a new purchase may be the only option. Power: This will be the least powerful of all the options so this amp will be working harder more of the time and that affects long-term reliability. It also means you need to exercise discretion with the volume control because distortion kills speakers. Features quality: Despite being fitted with remote control the performance of the IR transmitters in the handsets for these type of budget devices is notoriously poor. The handset will have limited range and a narrow angle where it will work even when the amp is in direct line of sight. The Pros are size and simplicity - one small box which is relatively easy to hide handles optical directly as well as providing power.
For solution 4 the Cons are size again and the technical issues of whether the source TV has a headphone jack and whether the output from it is controlled via the TVs main volume control of a buried sub menu that is harder to access. The other issue is the quality of the cabling. It would be very easy to buy an off-the-shelf audio cable and find that you suffer with hum problems. The reason would be the cable's inadequate shielding. It isn't enough just to have "shielding" without knowing what the design of the shielding actually is. Not all shielding is created equally. Unfortunately very few cable retailers know anything useful about what they're selling apart from a few headline features. This goes equally for high-end sellers as it does for budget cable retailers. If you select #4 as your solution then get in touch and I'll sort you out with the right cabling.
You've bought (or got hold of) 8" ceiling speakers which you say are already now installed, and yet you're talking about buying some computer speakers even after it has been discussed about volume control issues. Making some kind of Heath Robinson solution out of gear that isn't designed for the purpose when there's perfectly serviceable product available seems to me to be a rather odd approach.
Why not just spend the money on a soundbar?
Thanks for a very informative post Lucid. I don't mind ditching the ceiling speakers as they were second-hand anyway. I like the idea of the soundbar. If I connect my LG tv optical audio output to an LG soundbar, will the sound come out of my tv as well as the soundbar? reason I ask is because it will be used in a bedroom and the main wall where the TV is, is about 5meters away. and currently I have to put the volume rather loud to be able to hear it well from the back of the room. So what I am trying to achieve is the ability to have sound closer to me without having TV speakers too loud. So hence if audio is coming out of the TV as well as the soundbar, then technically I can put the sound bar right behind me or above me?
As long as there's nothing weird or wacky going on with the TV and soundbar such as you setting a menu to a preference which disables the internal speakers (if such an option exists on your TV), then you should be able to use both. You will have to check if there's any lag between the two sets of speakers, but that would be the same with any of the previous solutions
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