House speaker help please

[sparkmanc]

Hi,
Im rennovating a house, and want to install speakers.

I have DJ decks, CD player, and a TV that I want to use these speakers.

I have 3 speakers in downstairs area, and one in garden.

I would like to be able to get an amplifier that would allow me to choose between what input is being used (Decks, CD player or TV) and that would also allow me to isolate the garden speaker without physically disconnecting it (Although best might be to wire it seperately and leave the cable stripped ready to connect into the speaker outputs on the amplifier when needed - not often), and just use a standard AMP with variable inputs.

What wiring do I need from my TV to the amplifier (My decks, CD, AMP are all together) and what cable is best to wire my speakers in - some are 20m cable runs.

Also can you recommend a shop for selling these parts? (Speakers, Amp, Cable)

Also if I have a console plugged into my TV, would this need a seperate Audio cable back to the AMP, to work through the speakers, and what cable?


Kind regards.

 

[ericmark]

I am watching for replies. I bought two roles of speaker cable from pound land but when I came to solder the cable on to speakers I found one core was not copper and would not tin.

Although I know the theory of transmission lines I do not know what speaker cable is ratted at? I do know that using 50 ohm coax does not work. Before I understood transmission lines I tried using that to stop RF entering the cable.

I did a google for 8 ohm cable with no results. I am not sure if the 4 or 8 ohms quoted is a dc resistance of the speaker or the impedance of the speaker and if the latter at what frequency.

At around £25 for boot lace crimping pliers I am not inclined to buy a set just to use cheap cable from pound land and without some way to bind strands together it will not really fit into the maintenance free (No screws) connectors at the back of the amplifier.

One old amplifier I had gave one the option to fit extra speakers and I was not worried to leave with nothing connected but I know some amplifiers can be damaged by running with speakers disconnected.

So I would guess it requires careful reading on instructions of the amplifier you are going to use and there is no "Fits all" answer.

I would also guess my cheap amplifier would not be too bothered if the impedance is not quite correct but a more expensive system would need a lot more care to produce the HiFi sound.

As to TV there seems to be 3 systems to connect audio.
SCART
HDMI
Phono
And I think there is a difference when using 5.1 or 7.1 systems which have more that two channels of sound. My amplifier connects using a SCART lead but it seems although both TV and Amp are Panasonic they do not match as the VISTA does not seem to work. I know other makes use other systems to allow units to talk to each other.

My web cam uses firewire and I note with that starting the DVD recorder automatically start the camera playing which I expect is due to it being a digital link not analogue. I would expect something similar using HDMI connections but again this may vary make to make so only real way is to read your own manual.

I hope this generates some more answers if only to say I have it all wrong.

 

[sparkmanc]

Also like I said about selecting the speaker outputs, is there an AMP that would allow me to choose between speakers such as, just the garden - turning off the living room area?

What rating of AMP will I need, and will the speakers require power, or just the speaker connection?

 

[timtheenchanter]

there are quite a few amps, both domestic Hi-fi and prosumer/professional that have switchable multi-speaker outs on them.

did you mean 3 PAIRS of speakers downstairs? and one PAIR outside.

and how loud do you want it???

most amps, domestic and pro will take a range of impedances, commonly 4Ohm and up (max of 16 ohm recomended generally) there are amps that will go down as low as one ohm, but not many.

the resistance of your speaker cable is negligable, unless you are putting 100s of watts over 100s of meters through it, you wont notice a difference, a larger cable is needed in longer runs to stop voltage drop, nothing more (OK large PA systems with subs etc need it for current as well)

if it were me I would have at least 2 amps, probably 3 and use a mixer/line switcher to control the inputs. I would have 1 amp for livingroom, 1 amp with 2 pairs of speakers (switchable) for the other 2 downstairs locations, and one for outside.

this way you can control the levels independantly of each other.

If you have the budget, I would look at prosumer.pro stuff and have a Audio distribution unit to access via laptop or similar, that way the amps (with fans at this level of kit) can be hidden away somwhere.

 

[electronicsuk]

Take a look at the TEAC AG-980, it's a two zone amp that will probably fit your needs quite nicely.

As for speaker cable, unless you're an audiophile nut like a mate of mine who will happily part with £50 for a metre of cable, you really don't need to use anything special. It will depend on the wattage of the amp in relation to the impedance of the speaker, but any 2.5mm 2-core flex would be a good place to start. It would be possible to treat the cable as part of an AC power circuit and work out the volt drop to within a good enough figure to decide on what cable size to use, but it doesn't really seem worth doing.

Assuming most of your kit uses RCA connectors for unbalanced output, you want 2 core individually screened cable for the signal interconnects between amp and TV/CD/Decks/etc. However, I'd be wary of any lengthy unbalanced cable runs, as they are prone to picking up interference. Certainly keep your signal cables well away from any mains wiring. Something like http://cpc.farnell.com/pro-power/cbbr6313/twin-screened-audio-cable/dp/CBBR6415 would be ideal.

 

[sparkmanc]

Ok, say I had a pair of speakers in three seperate locations. (6 speakers)

Is there not a amp that would let me choose which speakers (1,2,3) are in use?

And would the speakers have to be in pairs? Say I wanted one in the bathroom, would one not do?

Many thanks.

 

[electronicsuk]

Ok, say I had a pair of speakers in three seperate locations. (6 speakers)

Is there not a amp that would let me choose which speakers (1,2,3) are in use?

Not likely for a sensible price, I'm afraid. It's very unusual to see outputs for more than two pairs of speakers on a typical consumer-grade amp, although the Teac I mentioned is unusual in that it will allow you to route different inputs to each of the two pairs of speaker outputs.

You can, however, get speaker switch boxes that will allow you to turn each pair of speakers on and off independently. This could work if done right, but do bear in mind that these generally just connect each set of speakers in parallel to the amp's output - this will cause issues with low impedance if you try and turn on too many pairs at once.

And would the speakers have to be in pairs? Say I wanted one in the bathroom, would one not do?

Yes, they would have to be in pairs, otherwise you will lose one channel of audio if the system is to be run in stereo. Your only other option would be to have an amp solely for the bathroom speaker, to which you could feed a stereo input and then sum into mono.

 

[sparkmanc]

Really appreciate your time, and help.

If you dont mind, would you summarise what you think would be best for my needs, nothing fancy just a good sound at a reasonable price.

If you could point me to what equipment I need, and where I can get it id be made up.

(Edit: By this I mean everything including amp and speakers)

Thanks again for your help.

 

[electronicsuk]

For three pairs of speakers, I'd suggest going with any amp with outputs for two sets of speakers (the Teac would be ideal). Use a two way speaker switch box on one of the outputs, add to that the remaining output on the amp, and that gives you three pairs of switchable outputs.

The choice of speakers really is down to personal preference, and depends what sort of performance you expect, and what you have to spend. JBL Control 1's at around £60/pair are quite reasonable, or Wharfedale Diamond 9.1's if you can stretch the budget to £100 a pair. Any more than that and you would be better of going to your local HiFi shop for a demo, and make a more informed decision.

 

[Joe Malone]

If you want a fantastic speaker cable then use a Cat 5 or 6 Network cable. Personally I normally use one from Maplins (Code VB20W) but I recently bought some Cat 6 stuff off ebay. This stuff will perform similarly to something that would cost you £40-£50 per LM from a HiFi shop. My speakers are biwired and i twist 3 cables together to make up one speaker cable. Its a little work but its well worth the cost savings which I think work out at around £1.00 per LM.

 

[ChrisFrost]

If you want a fantastic speaker cable then use a Cat 5 or 6 Network cable. .... This stuff will perform similarly to something that would cost you £40-£50 per LM from a HiFi shop.

I played around with plaited CAT5e a few years ago. I was never that happy with the results though.

After making sure that I only used the tightest twisted pair cable, then working out how many pairs were needed to produce a decent 12-14 gauge finished cable, we then plaited 6 pairs of conductors and terminating the whole lot. Phew. Me and a couple of mates sat down for a listen. It was better than T&E and some budget speaker cable from Richersounds. It certainly sounded different to those cables as well.

Where it lost out for us was against some £11/m Chord Rumour. Through that tunes just sounded more musical. The CAT5 just didn't work the same.

I know there's a lot of people who rate CAT5 as speaker cable; and I'm not saying our tests were scientific or conducted double blind or anything. It was just three lads, a few beers and some decent tunes on a hi-fi that lets you hear the performance. Perhaps the results would have been different through another hi-fi system.

 

[Joe Malone]

I played around with plaited CAT5e a few years ago. I was never that happy with the results though.

There'll always be a degree of subjectivity involved and the big question is how much improvement can you squeeze from you system. I was running Linn amps, a Naim CD player and B&W Nautilus speakers. The results I got were amazing and I was using speaker cable that had cost me £20 per LM.

If you go here http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/ffrc_e.html it explains how to make these cables and the principles behind making a good speaker cable.

 

[ChrisFrost]

I already followed the advice on FFRC from tnt. I also looked at some of the other sites too.

Hi-Fi is very subjective. B&W wouldn't be my first choice of speaker brand to get the sort of communication I'm looking for in a music replay system. Even the Diamond 800s have left me cold, so perhaps that is why what the ffrc cables do something you like but they don't work for me.

 

[timtheenchanter]

pleeeeease.....

don't get me started on hi-fi snake oil, ever been to a concert, did it sound OK??

I can guarantee you there was no fancy oxygen free copper in the speaker cable, just cable of a suitable gauge for the powers involved.

Im going to try to find the link where so-called hi-fi experts were in on a blind test of expensive hi-fi cable and some wire coat hangers.

found it http://consumerist.com/2008/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables.html

I have worked in a few studios, and I can assure you not one has used any fancy ridiculous priced cables on its speakers, the most important part of the system in terms of sound quality is the speakers, followed by the amp, then any input equipment.

 

[chapeau]

What wiring do I need from my TV to the amplifier (My decks, CD, AMP are all together) and what cable is best to wire my speakers in - some are 20m cable runs

You selection of AV kit depends on what you want it to do and how much money you have. You can have amplifiers (two channels, stereo only) or receivers (surround sound with subwoofers, usually for Home Cinemas).

As for speaker cable. You will go to somewhere like Richer Sounds and buy your amp and get a cracking deal, then they sell you some speaker cable and they make more money on the cable than the amp. no shortage of snake oil salesmen when it comes to speaker cable.

At the lengths you mention, and 20m is quite long for speaker cable, the only thing that matters is resistance. At the frequencies that go down a speaker cable then nothing else is relevant. There is a rule of thumb that the resistance of the cable has to be less than 5% the resistance of the speaker, no scientific basis for this, it's just a rule of thumb. And that's for a top end system.

So, lets say you have 4ohm speakers, cable has to be

4 x .05 = 0.2 ohms

maximum resistance.

Standard copper cable as found in your mains cable is more than adequate for the job, ignore all claims that you need 'oxygen free' cable, standard mains cable has very very little oxygen in it either.

So, resistance of 2.5mm2 cable is 7.4mOhms per metre, your longest run is 20 m (which you multiply by two as you are going there and back) so

40 x 7.4/1000

= 0.30 ohms.

Resistance of 4mm2 cable is 4.6mOhm / metre so

40 x 4.6 / 1000

= 0.18 ohms.

You know, i'd just use 2.5mm2 cable. Get it from screwfix, conduit cable or twin earth. My system is all wired up with 2.5mm2 twin and earth and works fine.

Cat5e cable is probably a very poor choice.