Dispute with Electrical installers

[Chas72]

Hi

We recently hired a 'pay by the hour' electrical firm to install a ring main on a bedroom in our house.

Long story short and without going into too much detail, due to possible pending legal action (to do with a separate issue with them regarding final payment), would like to check if the following issues with the work are their responsibility as far as UK electrical regulations goes. They’re NICEIC and Safe Contractor registered.

* They fitted junction boxes to connect up to the existing ring main (to extend it). The junction box is due to be covered by floorboards, hardboard and carpet. Doesn't this need to be crimped if it's inaccessible?
* One of the sockets back boxes is not fixed correctly. The box backs onto brickwork and the screw fixing has come loose. They claim this will be remedied when some bonding is put around it, which they won’t be doing.
* None of the wires leading to the sockets has conduit over the wires. Is this required to protect from nails etc. being pushed into the wires?


Thanks for your help

 

[riveralt]

Hi

We recently hired a 'pay by the hour' electrical firm to install a ring main on a bedroom in our house.

Long story short and without going into too much detail, due to possible pending legal action (to do with a separate issue with them regarding final payment), would like to check if the following issues with the work are their responsibility as far as UK electrical regulations goes. They’re NICEIC and Safe Contractor registered.

* They fitted junction boxes to connect up to the existing ring main (to extend it). The junction box is due to be covered by floorboards, hardboard and carpet. Doesn't this need to be crimped if it's inaccessible?

Yes jb's need to be accessible - however the definition of accessible is one for debate.

One of the sockets back boxes is not fixed correctly. The box backs onto brickwork and the screw fixing has come loose. They claim this will be remedied when some bonding is put around it, which they won’t be doing.

Poor workmanship - yes you can use bonding plaster but they should do it unless an agreement has been made between them/you and a plasterer.

None of the wires leading to the sockets has conduit over the wires. Is this required to protect from nails etc. being pushed into the wires?

There is no requirement to protect cable with conduit - however there is a requirement for cable to run in safe zones and in your case the new ring final circuit should also be protected by an RCD.
Contact NICEIC and advise them of your problems with this contractor - they offer guarantee service.

 

[Chas72]

Hi riveralt

Yes jb's need to be accessible - however the definition of accessible is one for debate.

In your view does a jb under fixed floorboards, handboard and carpet pass as accessible?


One other question, following final payment they've said they'll provide a Minor Works Certificate. Is this the appropriate cert for this type of work? When it comes time to sell the house will we have any issues?

Thanks

 

[riveralt]

Hi riveralt

Yes jb's need to be accessible - however the definition of accessible is one for debate.

In your view does a jb under fixed floorboards, handboard and carpet pass as accessible?

No I do not believe it is.

One other question, following final payment they've said they'll provide a Minor Works Certificate. Is this the appropriate cert for this type of work? When it comes time to sell the house will we have any issues?

Thanks

The Minor Works Certificate should be okay if they have only been working on extending one circuit.

 

[Spark123]

Under a fixed floor isn't really accessible for inspection and testing, either maintenance free JBs ought to be used or the wires pulled back to the previous sockets might be better.

A minor works cert may be used for alteration of a circuit yes.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

And you haven't yet said whether this circuit is protected by an RCD...

 

[transam]

what is a maintenance free JB ?? a jb with crimped connections ??

Interested ??

 

[riveralt]

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html?source=froogle
Whether everybody agrees its maintenance free is another thing though.

 

[RF Lighting]

I for one don't agree that it complies with BS7671 for use as a joint which does not need to remain accessible, but we've done the debate to death, and I don't intend to go over it again.

A JB with crimped connectors is just that. It's wires crimped together using thru crimps in some form of enclosure. This would be my preferred method if a joint is totally unavoidable.

 

[Chas72]

And you haven't yet said whether this circuit is protected by an RCD...

The ring main they connected up to is tied into a 2 year old consumer unit that is certified.

 

[securespark]

Did they install a whole new RFC?

If so, an EIC would be more appropriate than a MWC.

Also, is there PEB's to G & W, and/or Oil, LPG etc......

 

[ericmark]

I would say crimped, soldered, and spring clips are considered as maintenance free. Does not really matter to if I like them it's what the manufactures and regulators say that matters.

The point is that it has been found that screw connections can with vibration work lose vacuum cleaners do cause vibration when used.

Consumer units fitted after 2008 should be RCD protected so from what you say that should be OK there will be test buttons on the main RCD or RCBO if they are used instead.

As to paperwork I would not issue paperwork until I had completed a job and although one can't hold back the paperwork until paid to not issue paperwork because the work was not complete would likely be seen as a valid reason for non issue. It is a bit of a problem as really one should not power up a circuit until all dead testing is completed and live testing should be done ASAP after power is put on the circuit. However it is common for larger firms to employ testers separate from the electricians doing the work and likely the electricians will make circuits live while they wait for them to be tested. Not strictly correct but it is common.

I had problems when sacking a firm as once sacked the only way to get the completion certificate is through the LABC and there is not way to get a minor works or installation certificate. Lucky you likely don't need a completion certificate so a periodic inspection report or new name Electrical Installation Condition Report would have to do.

The access problem is as already said something which has been talked about many times. Screwing down floor boards (not nails) and marking JB below was at one time common. It is when the carpet fitters come and nail down the carpet grips that it becomes inaccessible I suppose in theroy they should provide a Velcro access panel but we all know that will not happen. However unless the electricians re-laid the carpet technically they could claim it was accessible when they left.

Paid by the hour is also a problem. I have been on the other side where the work was not completed on time due to no fault of mine and I had the next job lined up so had to leave without completing. (I had a plane to catch and they would not pay me cost of missed flight) So I would think it would be hard to get satisfaction once a firm has been dismissed.

I think if one takes the extreme action of throwing a firm off site and they were paid by the hour then likely any remedial work is yours to sort.

 

[Chas72]

@securespark

Heh. You forgot about OMG and WTF?!


Hi ericmark

Thanks for the detailed reply. This firm are threatening us with legal action if we don't pay an excessive quote for this works, a quote that we didn't receive as they sent it to the wrong email address. We explained to them that we were proceeding on their hourly rate and an expectation of a small amount for parts, i.e. 15 metres of cable, some clips and the jb's.

We don't want them back on site. Or are we obliged to allow them to correct the work?

Assuming we're not required to get them back what are our options for getting the paperwork? Hire another film to correct the issues and test, or contact NICEIC?

 

[riveralt]

We don't want them back on site. Or are we obliged to allow them to correct the work?

Assuming we're not required to get them back what are our options for getting the paperwork? Hire another film to correct the issues and test, or contact NICEIC?

Contact NICEIC and advise them of your problems with this contractor - they offer guarantee service.

 

[Chas72]

I've spoken with NICEIC. They don't get involved in the financial side of the dispute at all.

The procedure is we would need to fill out a complaints form and mail it back to them. They would then assign someone from their complaints team to investigate, which could take a couple of weeks or more. In the mean time the job must be left in it's current state.