HELP!!!! Biasi Combi M90 24S No Pressure

[Lizbet30]

I have been in my house for a year. During that time I have had no problems with the boiler which is a combi for my hotwater and CH. I joined Homeserve as they give you a free service once a year and yesterday a Corgi engineer came out to service it giving it a clean bill of health.

The next day my pressure was at 0 and I could not use CH or hot water. My CH has been off since May and the only reason I knew it was not working is because I tried it before I saw the pressure was at 0. When I saw the pressure was down to 0 I added more water from the filler loop, taking it back up to 1.5. I then tried CH and hot water and both were working again and were stable. However, when I turned off the CH, the pressure dropped again to O. I again filled the boiler to 1.5 and tried the hot water. It is stable while it is running but after switch off over the course of about 10-20 mins it drops to O. I phoned up Homeserve and they sent out another engineer from the same company and he refilled the boiler and ran the hot water and again the pressure valve was stable. The hot water was turned off and he waited for a while but had to go to another job. After 10-20 mins the pressure then dropped again to 0. I phoned them back and they are now saying that I must have a leak but there were no problems yesterday!! I have looked over the whole house and can find no leak(unless under floorboards or in walls) and it must be a massive leak to take 20mins to empty boiler!!!

After he had gone I refilled the boiler and ran the CH for 2 hours with no drop in pressure at all. Even when running the hot water at the same time there was no drop. However, as soon as it was turned off the pressure went to 0 again within 20 mins.

Please help. Basically I need to know could the service engineer have caused this by knocking something in the boiler? He gave it a full service but did not touch anything else.

I have looked on DIY sites and the options are:

1 A leak - I have checked and cant find one.
2 Pressure relief Valve - have checked this and no water coming out.
3 Expansion vessel - don't know anything about this but could this be possible?
4 Air in system venting through automatic air vent - could this be possible?
5 Diverter or diaphram?

Are any of these possible. I have checked the first two. Would really appreciate any advice at all. Thanks.

 

[Agile]

Any of the first three are possible.

I was going to say 2 but you say you "have checked this"!

Are you sure that you have properly checked this?

Not wanting to brand you like Lee239 but why not say exactly what you have done?

It wuld be very coincidental if a leak started under the floor the same day the boiler was serviced.

Have you looked under the floor?

Next test will be to turn off the flow and return valve and see if it still goes down.

Tony

 

[Lizbet30]

Any of the first three are possible.

I was going to say 2 but you say you "have checked this"!

Are you sure that you have properly checked this?

Not wanting to brand you like Lee239 but why not say exactly what you have done?

It wuld be very coincidental if a leak started under the floor the same day the boiler was serviced.

Have you looked under the floor?

Next test will be to turn off the flow and return valve and see if it still goes down.

Tony

Thanks for reply. It is honestly the truth that all was working fine until after the service was done. We woke up this morning to no hot water and the pressure down to 0. I did not regularly check pressure valve over the summer but had no need to as hot water worked ok and CH off. Have looked everywhere in the house. I have only started checking for a leak since today's engineer has suggested it. We have a cellar and a lot of our pipes go under there and still I can see nothing. I have now used the filler loop 6 times today!! I don't understand where the water can be going and the PRV is not dripping. I stood outside for a few minutes to see if there were any drops. There were none. Should I stand outside for longer?I know what this is like as when I moved in a year ago I used the filler loop and overfilled the system so had to bleed the radiator to get to normal. Until that happened the PRV was dripping a lot. The system was working well until yesterday's service. I am covered for heating by Homeserve anyway so am not trying anything on. I am just now scared what the problem is.

 

[Agile]

I would usually expect the PRV to be leaking. Not necessarily when you are watching it! ( kettles.... )

Put a bottle or a condom over the discharge pipe and see if that fills up.

If not then do the last line I posted before.

Tony

 

[Lizbet30]

I would usually expect the PRV to be leaking. Not necessarily when you are watching it! ( kettles.... )

Put a bottle or a condom over the discharge pipe and see if that fills up.

If not then do the last line I posted before.

Tony

Ok. Will do. The engineer is back tomorrow so will say that as would rather wait for him to check flow. The boiler is on the first floor though and will need ladder to get to pipe but will also say that too. Thanks for your help.

 

[Agile]

The test for leakage from the PRV vent is a long test and needs to be done say 12 hours before reaching a conclusion.

Attaching a straight hose to bring it down to ground level might make the test easier.

The last line test is also a long test and can be done at the same time as the PRV test.

Tony

 

[Lizbet30]

Thanks for getting back to me. They are going to come back today so will see what happens. If it is a leak it must be massive as I filled up to 1.5 from empty 7 times yesterday and there is no evidence of water leak anywhere. The pipes go from the boiler in my first floor bedroom to the radiators and bathroom (also first floor) & kitchen taps on ground floor floor and are on the ceiling of the cellar and I can see no dripping and the walls show no discolouration. An odd thing happened this morning when I again filled up the boiler to 1.5 and turned on the heating. This time it went up to 3 and rising and the PRV did start venting outside. I needed to bleed nearly 4 litres out from a radiator before it became stable at 1.5. It then stayed there. When I tuned off the heating it stayed at 1.5 for an hour. When I turned on the heating again though. It went down to 0 again. Am going to suggest The diaphragm Expansion vessel is perforated to them. The thing is if I had a leak I would have known about it. I have never had to top up the filling valve before except when I first moved in a year ago. It does suggest the service caused this as never pressure drop before this.

 

[Lizbet30]

The Homeserve engineer has just left and thoroughly checked the boiler. I explained about having to top the boiler up 7 times yesterday and he isolated the boiler and found it was secure. Therefore he says it can only be a leak but yesterday at least 10 litres of water must have come out as I kept topping it up when boiler pressure went to zero so the leak must be massive.

It seems probable that because we had no issues before the service man came on Tuesday and the CH has been off since May, when the original he came out to check the boiler and pressure it must have either started a leak or popped a join in the pipes. The issue is now where this massive amount of water is since Tuesday as there are no visible signs. Our house is an old Victorian terrace and the boiler is in a bedroom on the first floor. The pipes go down into the floor and into a boxed unit in the lounge below next to the fireplace and into the cellar, being open in the ceiling (we have not done up the cellar so easy to see in the joists. There are no leaking pipes in the cellar and no pools of water. I have checked all the ground floor ceilings and all the walls and radiator joins. He thinks that the solution may be the kitchen extension put on the house at a later date so the cellar does not run under there. This means that they are under a concrete floor which is covered with slate tiles. He thinks that a joint may have popped under the floor on Tuesday. Does this sound right?

They are going to now get a plumber out to check this and he says they should isolate the pipes going to the kitchen first and check the pressure in the system which will let them know if that is definitely the issue. What I don't understand is that there are no signs at all in the kitchen floor (or ceiling) of water seeping upwards through the floor. Would the water just go into the ground then? The boiler has been topped up at least 10 times since Tuesday and so we are talking a lot of water. Would appreciate any comments. There were no issues with the CH from July 2007 when we moved in until May when turned off and we have had hot water all summer with no issues until Tuesday. The only time I have ever had to top up the pressure was when I first moved in a year ago as I noticed it was at .5 and then no issues until after engineer came on Tuesday. Thanks.

 

[Agile]

If only you had done my test it would have identified the problem days ago! You could even have told the Homeserve man and made him feel as stupid as he is!

Your expansion vessel is either faulty ( unusual on a Biasi ) or needs repressurising. You can read about it in the FAQ on this site so that you can tell them how to do it.

Call them up and tell them!

You have to understand that to keep your premiums low thay have to employ muppetts because no top rate engineer would put up with their conditions of employment.

Tony

 

[Lizbet30]

This is becoming a nightmare. I did not touch anything after the service engineer (from original company that did service) left yesterday so pressure at zero. Last night I heard gurgling in the radiators even though CH off and pressure zero. The only way we could sleep was if I closed all the radiators on the top floor. I assumed this was more evidence of a leak.

The plumber (employed by Homeserve but new company) came out this morning. He filled up the filler loop and ran hot water. This time there was no pressure drop at all. I explained all the pipework but he said if there was a leak then there was no evidence and he would have expected some seepage even if it was under the kitchen floor(cellar doesnt run under that) and suggested that if something did pop out it has popped in again. We then tried CH and it now doesn't work at all. The odd thing is that it heats up above a section of pipe just down from the boiler but then doesn't carry on into the system. The plumber told me that he cannot do anything if there is no evidence of a leak.

My issue is now that I am worried that the engineer yesterday turned a valve to the CH pipe and did not turn it back on - could that be the new issue? Could that be now why there is no pressure drop but the central heating pipe is hot straight under the boiler but not hot in the pipe after a join. We now have hot water working pressure is stable but no CH!!!!!! I phoned Homeserve and then are now sending a new company boiler engineer out and I am waiting on the call now.

Halfway through the call the new company rang and cant see me till Tuesday so have now rung Homeserve back to see if I can get someone else. I have now phoned Homeserve again and they are trying a new company.

Just to schedule the issue.

Before Tuesday 19th August no issue with boiler for a year (moved in July 2007). I tuned off CH in May but prior to that no issue. Also hot water working fine until Tuesday. Service engineer came to service the boiler and gave me a certificate to say all was fine with boiler.

After Tuesday 19th August next morning we had no hot water and I noticed pressure zero. I used filler loop and then both CH and hot water working fine but after a while pressure went to zero. Phoned Homeserve and they arranged for someone from the company to come back out.

I kept using the filler loop to put in water and pressure kept going to zero but both hot water and CH were working when some pressure remained. I have detailed all the other issues in earlier posts.

Wednesday 20th pm engineer came out from company that originally did the service and could find nothing wrong and the pressure seemed ok. 20 mins after he left it went to zero. I then phoned Homeserve and they said they would arrange for someone from the company to come out again. During this time I had phoned the company direct as I had a mobile number. The person on the phone had practically accused me of lying about a leak and that it was too much of a coincidence that this had happened at the time but this was not the case as I had no issues before this.

Thursday 21st same engineer as Wednesday came out and thoroughly checked boiler and said expansion vessel ok and PRV. He said he isolated the boiler and that was definitely fine and I definitely had a leak most likely under kitchen floor. I left everything as it was as Homeserve arranged for a plumber today.

Friday 22nd a plumber from different company came and have stated above in this post what is the situation now.

Do you Tony (AGILE) know what on earth could be going on? Am starting to be at wits end. The only reason I can keep being at home is that I am a teacher and on summer holiday. I have had to cancel going away to see relatives but the new term will start in a week and will have to go back to work then. I have now had issues for 4 days. I did say to the service engineer yesterday about the expansion vessel but he said it was ok.

 

[Lizbet30]

...

 

[Agile]

Left and right pipes should have line on valves vertical to be open.

Your diary of who has been and when is not helping me to know whats going on with your boiler/system.

If you cannot do the simple two tests I have outlined then I cannot make any suggestions without the results.

Boiler repairs are not guesswork, they follow careful testing. Without those tests we cannot come to any conclusions.

Tony

 

[Lizbet30]

Thanks for getting back. I am sorry if I am not giving the correct information. I am only an English teacher and I have never had to do this kind of checking before. I checked the pipes immediately under the boiler and one was vertical and one was horizontal. This means that the engineer from the original company that may have caused the problem went away with the valve horizontal. I have now moved the one for the CH to vertical and now heat is travelling down the pipes. The pressure at the moment is at 2.2. When the heating went on it rose from 1.5 but now looks stable. We now have both hot water and CH at the moment. What on earth is going on? I have said to Homeserve that I would like someone from a different company to come out and check the system.

 

[doitall]

It's not a case of the correct information, but doing the tests and posting the results, so the topic can move on to a conclusion.

What is the maximum pressure the boiler reaches when the heating is on for example ?

 

[Lizbet30]

I have given all the information I know in all my previous posts. Homeserve have now rung up to say that the service manager of the original company is going to phone up and come out. I have not heard anything yet.

At the moment pressure is at 1.5 I turned on CH 30 mins ago after I turned on the valve which had been left closed yesterday by the engineer yesterday. The pressure was as 2.2 and I was starting to get worried so bled the radiator until returned to 1.5 as know that is meant to be correct prssure. The pressure has remained stable even when I was running water. I have now turned off the CH to see what happens to the pressure. I have mentioned all the suggestions to the service engineer from the original company that did the service and he did seem to do many tests and isolated the boiler and said we had a leak because when he was turning one valve the pressure dropped. I am now starting to really worry as it is a bit worrying that he left the CH valve closed when he left and that a new plumber from another company today did not spot this but told me my CH was now not working!!!!!