house re-wire

[refurb man]

hi all,need some advice as my electrician has let me down ,BIG time!!
complete re-furbishment of 3 bed house,inc re-wire.
customer living there(very brave!! ) so need electrics on in various rooms as we go from room to room,and make easy and safe for plastering etc this is the idea i have and welcome your comments!
the consumer unit would look like this;;
bed 1,radial 20 amp mcb with 2.5
bed 2,same
bed 3,same
lounge,same
dining room,same
landing,loft,hall,boiler,house alarm,same
undertile heating(2kw) fire(2kw) and 4 spare sockets,2.5mm ring 32amp
garage,4mm armoured 20amp with second unit in garage with 6 and 16amp
kitchen,32 ring for sockets,and 20 amp radial for washer,dishwasher
6mm for cooker(no socket)
up lights,1.5mm 6amp
down lights,same
bathroom (x2)lights etc ,1.5 6amp (on rcd)
smoke alarm,1.5mm with 3core links 6amp
100amp main switch and 80amp rcd
service fuse 60amp!! looking to have service head replaced to 100amp
should the outside lights be on rcd?have own circuit? there will be about 4
think thats it! any thoughts would be great,,(now off to bury my claw hammer where that lecy cant wire any lights )
[/i]

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You are not an electrician, and don't really know what you are doing - please tell me that you are not planning to rewire someone's house for money....

 

[Taylortwocities]

Refurb - visit www.competentperson.co.uk and type in yr postcode.
You'll then get a qualified spark that is registered to self certify his (not your) work.

Trust me, it will be much safer and cheaper for you to take this route...

 

[Pensdown]

bed 1,radial 20 amp mcb with 2.5
bed 2,same
bed 3,same
lounge,same
dining room,same
landing,loft,hall,boiler,house alarm,same

Umm, I did wonder who bought Johnd's stock of 20amp MCB's....

 

[refurb man]

hi guys,,no i am not doing it as such,no,no!
just need to get wires in walls for plastering, another lecy coming but not for 2 weeks,and those plasterers are expensive to have sitting around!!!
the lecy was supposed to wire as we go but now have a problem,,,bad set out then??!!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

just need to get wires in walls for plastering, another lecy coming but not for 2 weeks,and those plasterers are expensive to have sitting around!!!

And this electrician will be quite happy to sign a legal declaration that he installed all those cables that can't see, will he?

You know everything you should know, do you, on cable zones, bend radii, support intervals, installation methods and their effect on current carrying capacity, how to cable for multiway switching, the structural rules for drilling joists and chasing walls, the requirements of Parts B, E, F, L & M insofar as they apply to the rewiring, the maximum lengths of circuits and the protective devices needed given the Ze of the property....

the lecy was supposed to wire as we go but now have a problem,,,bad set out then??!!

It's a contradictory mix of overkill on separate radial circuits and no dedicated circuits for the fixed heating appliances, no mention of any provision for other bathroom circuits even if not needed on day 1...

 

[JohnD]

radial circuits are widely used in other countries.

A UK electrician would be familiar with our wonderful Ring system though.

What language did your previous electrician speak? Did you not care that he had no UK qualifications?





p.s. Don't expect much sympathy

 

[ban-all-sheds]

radial circuits are widely used in other countries.

Nothing wrong with radials, and a lot to recommend them.

A UK electrician would be familiar with our wonderful Ring system though.

Quite a lot wrong with rings, and not much to recommend them.

It's not the use of radials per se that I think odd, it's the idea of having one per bedroom etc..

 

[JohnD]

rings are wonderful!

An electrician who installs radials like that is IMO not UK trained. And 20A for the alarm

What's your most likely explanation?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

rings are wonderful!

They were introduced as an expedient solution to a combination of rapid changing use and a copper shortage. They were essentially a modification to what were meant to be radial circuits, not a ground-up design.

The Wiring Regulations have had to have a special exemption written into them to make them comply, and that only for 2.5mm² T/E (which miraculously acquired a suitable current rating when someone noticed that it didn't previously have and the IEE commissioned more tests.) There is no general acceptability of ring finals for any other circuits. (And 433-02-04 is usually ignored/contravened)

They are difficult to test and difficult to extend, and create the need for special rules for spurs.

Inexpert extensions and modifications and spurs can give rise to danger, as can faults which remain undetected because all the sockets still work.

An electrician who installs radials like that is IMO not UK trained.

You could be right - the use of 1 radial per room (often supplying lights as well as sockets) is common in other countries.

And 20A for the alarm

That circuit isn't just for the alarm - maybe he plans to use an FCU for it.

What's your most likely explanation?

It could be that this is not the design of the vanished electrician - maybe refurb man is the one with foreign influences in his design - he did say that the design was his idea.....

 

[refurb man]

ok ok i have taken enough of a beating!!!!!!
ok ring for upstairs and one for downstairs,i get it!!
as for the fitting of the cables,joist holes trunking,insulation,diversity etc yes i have some idea and considering he will be able to see all the cables and easy to see the drops( will plaster wrong way round and leave ceilings to last so he can inspect) i dont see it thats bad,but hey what do i know obviously!!
the lecy was booked for 3 weeks and on start day decided he would do a diff job for someone else,which he knew for 2 weeks before and never rang me! and after i paid him £1120 for fitting a cu,2 cables to a immersion boiler,and testing,,which took him 2 days!
its not the money ,dont have an issue with that,us plumbers and gas guys been getting well paid for ages so why not lecys?? its the small bit of loyalty!!
anyway was just wanting some advice so we can get on, so if any help at all that would be very nice thank you

 

[ban-all-sheds]

ok ok i have taken enough of a beating!!!!!!
ok ring for upstairs and one for downstairs,i get it!!

Not necessarily.

as for the fitting of the cables,joist holes trunking,insulation,diversity etc yes i have some idea

Do you think you have a good enough idea to be justified in signing a certificate which says "I being the person responsible for the design of the electrical installation (as indicated by my signatures below), particulars of which are described above, having exercised reasonable skill and care when carrying out the design hereby CERTIFY that the work for which I have been responsible is to the best of my knowledge and belief in accordance with BS 7671:2001 , amended to 2004 except for the departures, if any, detailed as follows:" and charge money for the design?

And talking of certificates, what will you do about Building Regulations certification?

 

[FingRinal]

Ring finals are an excellent bit of design. They were ahead of their time when conceived and first implemented and are now proving their worth in a world of diminishing resources and sky high copper prices.

The only drawback in my opinion is that they should be deployed in areas such as kitchens only after careful thought of loading and placement of high current using equipment.

But, it's not just sockets that can benefit from Ring technology. Lighting in commercial/industrial installations can benefit from flexibility and considerable cost savings if designed and constructed in ring finals.

As for testing. Easy. Anyone who has any difficult testing a ring final shouldn't be designing, constructing or inspect & testing electrical installations.

As for spurs, it's exactly the same to spur from a radial circuit as a ring final circuit.

 

[FingRinal]

Also, the whole re-wire is notifiable under Part P which means you can pay the Planning Department to approve it and certify your own DIY work

No need to sign or certify anything!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ring finals are an excellent bit of design. They were ahead of their time when conceived and first implemented and are now proving their worth in a world of diminishing resources and sky high copper prices.

I can't help thinking that if they were such a good idea then they would by now have been adopted in other countries. If we have them and nobody else does it's not likely to mean that every other country is wrong...

The only drawback in my opinion is that they should be deployed in areas such as kitchens only after careful thought of loading and placement of high current using equipment.

A problem that just goes away with radials.

And I'm sure you must be able to think of other drawbacks in terms of faults...

But, it's not just sockets that can benefit from Ring technology. Lighting in commercial/industrial installations can benefit from flexibility and considerable cost savings if designed and constructed in ring finals.

And still comply with 433-02-01?

As for testing. Easy. Anyone who has any difficult testing a ring final shouldn't be designing, constructing or inspect & testing electrical installations.

OK - maybe I should have said "more difficult", or "more time consuming".

As for spurs, it's exactly the same to spur from a radial circuit as a ring final circuit.

WHAT