House rewire - use wireless lights?

[ban-all-sheds]

Thanks, but still interested in the idea. actually been looking around at these wisqo lights

WisQo was founded in 2014 with a sole aim of empowering you to harness the vast opportunity presented by the rise of the Internet of Things.​

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/key-replacement-attack-krack-on-wifi-systems.490784/

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm not sure your objection is justified.

I am.

You seem to misunderstand the role and/or scope of an 'electrician'; whether (just) domestic or commercial. It is to supply a safe installation for the requirements of the customer's equipment.

It's also to advise. And to design - there's even a space to sign for the design on an EIC.

I don't think it is to keep abreast of every little new product and review them.

A product from a major manufacturer like MK, which has been in the market for decades, is hardly a "little new product".

And the role of an electrician is to keep abreast of changes at a high level. Not become any kind of expert in them, but enough to know that the area exists, roughly what they do, when they are or might be appropriate.

Presumably Winston has not had experience of the item in question, so your response to his "How does that work?" is most inappropriate.

Were Winston an electrician it would not have been.

Obviously we learn about things we have dealt with but not all of them - just in case.

That's why there are specialists - lighting consultants, fire alarm installers, burglar alarm installers, lift engineers, heating engineers etc. etc.
We could install the wiring for any of them given the requirements but knowledge of the machines is not our concern.

Not even knowledge of their existence?

What would you think of an electrician who was not a burglar alarm installer, and was asked about installing one, who said "Claims it detects intruders when they break an invisible beam? Sounds like snake oil to me."?

Would you ask an electrician which model of television set or cooker you should buy?

False analogy.

"Hello Mr Home Entertainment System salesman, what can you tell me about the new Samsung curved screen TV?"

"A curved TV screen? Sounds like snake oil to me."

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Do you expect electricians to understand the inner workings of products?

I think it reasonable to expect them to have heard of established products from major manufacturers.

Were Winston an electrician then the ignorance he displayed would be unacceptable. He's not, so it isn't, but as James thought he was then his criticism was justified.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm not an electrician, and I'm not going to comment on whether your expectations are 'unreasonable' (since that is essentially an individual opinion), but I do think that your expectations are unrealistic, at least in relation to a product as relatively unusual and uncommon as you have been talking about. I agree with everything that EFLI (a fairly recently retired electrician, as I understand) said.

What does the 'P' in CPD stand for?

What is an electrician?

If you want analogies, I suppose one might think it terms of what one could realistically expect if one took an electric car to a traditional "car mechanic" (or "automotive engineer"),

False analogy.

I would expect a car dealer to have heard of electric cars even if he did not sell them, could not maintain them, and didn't know how they worked.

or to what one could realistically expect a GP to know about a pretty rare disease.

False analogy.

I would not expect a GP to dismiss the existence of symptoms because he had never heard of a disease which had them.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm not objecting to people who are not experts in every widget. I am objecting to the reasonable proportion I have met who, in answer to the question "Can we use wireless switches to avoid ploughing up the frieze in that room?" reply "Dunno if wireless switches exist, sorry. I only know Crabtree like what they sell in Screwfix".

Let's depersonalise. Would you employ a CH system installer (or whatever you'd like to call that trade) who had no idea whether it was possible to split a heating system into three zones, each with a separate zone control valve, as they'd only ever done - and only ever shown interest in - one zone for radiators and one for hot water?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So if a spark connects up your latest piece of high security equipment you expect him to know all its capabilities? And what would you tell him when he asked how does this work? and what does it do?

False analogy.

If I went to a small IT business because I wanted a system to do things for my business, and I asked abut making sure it was secure, I would expect them to be aware that there were all sorts of things which could be done even if the doing of them was outwith their competence.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm getting a bit confused here, since all your observations have been about the product knowledge of electricians (which we could debate for ever), despite the fact that, as far as I can make out, the only person here who has made statements and asked questions which have indicated little/no knowledge of the products which interest you has told you that he is not a domestic electrician.

But none of the people who have pushed back at him have done so on behalf of that person - they have done so on a generic basis of the product knowledge of electricians.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I think the mistake you're making is hoping that building trades have the same attitude to the industry as it specialists. Actually that's not necessary to do the job.

It ought to be.

I would not expect every builder to be able to do it, but I would be distinctly unimpressed by one who said "A house built using prefabricated walls made in a factory? Some new thing from Ikea is it?"

For it security in particular that's a job requirement,

CPD is a requirement in every job.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I work in IT cyber security and the risks of someone hacking it don't keep me awake at night.

It is true that the risks of someone wanting to hack into your light switch are probably quite small.

But given your area of expertise you ought to be very worried about the overall levels of risk faced by society because so many product developers think that there is so little risk of their product being hacked that they don't bother to do anything about security.

I expect, given your field, that you already do, but just in case (and apologies if it causes offence), you should subscribe to The Risks Digest.

 

[winston1]

I would ask one question, if you get a power cut for even a few seconds with the switches remain as set?

Probably the most important point in this whole discussion, and I'd like to know the answer as well.

 

[James Carmichael]

It is true that the risks of someone wanting to hack into your light switch are probably quite small.

But given your area of expertise you ought to be very worried about the overall levels of risk faced by society because so many product developers think that there is so little risk of their product being hacked that they don't bother to do anything about security.

I expect, given your field, that you already do, but just in case (and apologies if it causes offence), you should subscribe to The Risks Digest.

Hi BAS,

First of all, consider this a general 'thumbs up' for your posts on this thread - you've clearly set out the point I was trying to make.

In terms of responding to the quote above, I agree, I am, no offence caused and I do.

JC

 

[John D v2.0]

It ought to be.

I would not expect every builder to be able to do it, but I would be distinctly unimpressed by one who said "A house built using prefabricated walls made in a factory? Some new thing from Ikea is it?"



CPD is a requirement in every job.

It would certainly be more productive, but not enough to provide value. Most people aren't prepared to pay that much for their tins of beans/taxi ride/pizza delivery/other commodities.

 

[ericmark]

Probably the most important point in this whole discussion, and I'd like to know the answer as well.

I wanted an energy monitor and remote switch combined so I could actually see if on or off remotely. However it did not work out as expected, one it will not work with the remote controls, and the other is if switched off due to power cut it stays off. I would have in hind sight have been better with two independent units one measuring power the other a remote switch.

In the main we don't get power cuts, but I could not risk plugging a freezer into a remote controlled socket as all too easy for a short power cut to result in no power. At the moment monitoring a battery charger, so not a problem, if power goes off battery charger needs the mode button pressing anyway.

What I did do with pendent alarm was set the three timers to switch it off and on a minute latter three times a day, so if in error switched off it will auto come on again once time is reached.

The light switch needs a longer press on the remote than the sockets, I use the lights to wake me in the morning, on a timer and are set to switch off at night however if I want to switch them back on straight away I find them very slow to respond. The remote light switch only fitted in my bed room. I think an odd light, or an odd socket OK but all lights would be really a problem when you get a power cut.

 

[JohnW2]

Hi BAS, First of all, consider this a general 'thumbs up' for your posts on this thread - you've clearly set out the point I was trying to make. In terms of responding to the quote above, I agree, I am, no offence

It's been an interesting discussion, not the least because of the differing views expressed.

I presume there is no disagreement that, in principal, any professional or tradesman should try to keep up-to-date with new developments in their fields/disciplines, the only question being how up-to-date one can realistically expect them to be, particularly in relation to things that, even if they have been around for quite a long time, are far from being in widespread use. As I implied previously, had your comments related to an electrician not knowing about (or even 'of') wireless light switching, I would have been totally 'with you' from the very start.

In terms of the range of views, I would be interested to hear what practising electricians think about the views you have expressed - so far you have only heard from one retired electrician and a few non-electricians.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

I would ask one question, if you get a power cut for even a few seconds with the switches remain as set?

This was something I got wrong on the design of my lighting controller. It was designed to retain memory of output states during a power cut by saving them to non volatile memory using power from a capacitor. It did when there was a clean break but corrupted the stored data if the power stuttered OFF ON OFF ON OFF . So a new design is in progress with 24 hour battery back up. ( I never have liked store on power loss systems. ).

The controller allows the use of 12 volt switching and thus small diameter cables down to the switches, normal mains cabling to switches would have to be surface as the walls are either stone or wattle and daub.