How much space required for this plant room?

What can be done, does not mean it should...in 7 years I have replaced one dhw sensor on a system, and the problem there was the cable..

I am not criticising other peoples approach, but if posters are provocative then I will respond...

TPI technology was developed with bus communication in mind, then modified to on-off for the UK
 
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And I agree there is a lot to be said for off the shelf controls, that's why we need the manufacturers to start selling OT controls in the uk...
 
"Thermistors are far from reliable too Alec." - this is not true.

We will have to agree to disagree, but I have the test rig set up to prove it. I have thermocouples, clamp on dials, and thermistors all measuring the same thing. None of them give the same readings.

Granted for our purposes the inaccuracies are not going to bring civilisation crashing down.
 
if youve got good pressure and flow i think in series is better personally, just so customer can only heat the 2nd one at low usage, save gas.

I agree that its far better in series if the pressure is adequate to achieve the maximum required flow without too much loss of pressure.

However, many cheaper cylinder makers seem to think that 22 mm connections are adequate and 30 li/min the max anyone would ever want.

Also it can make the pressure higher than it needs to be. Higher than 3 Bar is usually a nuisence, splashing and noisy valves etc.

Ideally the first of series connected cylinders would be heated by solar.

Tony
 
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An average domestic door is 760mm.

Will they stand up in a 2.24 ceiling and still have room for the pipes.
 
I agree MM but what could be easier than 1 cylinder sensor, 1 outdoor sensor on boiler and two pumps ..... And a recirc pump controlled by the boiler circuit board.
 
The advantage of adopting technology and following boiler schematics provided by the manufacturer ...

...

Not following a schematic seems to be a compromise to me... Others may think differently though
Obviously the boiler manufacturers want people to use their controls - that's why they aren't providing/selling open standards. I see a number of issues with that :

1) It "trains" plumbers to think that proprietary controls are the only way to do things - good for the manufacturer, not necessarily for the customer/user. If all you can do is follow the wiring diagram in the boiler manual then you are not competent (IMO) to be specifying controls.

2) It limits the controls to only what the manufacturer provides - not good for the customer/user.

3) Because of 2, the end user may well be stuck with something that isn't optimal for their situation. It may be as little as the customer not liking the styling of the room stat/controller, it may be that they'd prefer something that has different options but they can't do that can they ?

Conversely, something 'open' (such as OpenTherm, but not necessarily that particular one) means the customer can choose their own controller to suit their needs - without it being influenced by or influencing their choice of boiler.

Just to give some ideas, a had a quick look at OpenTherm and found that several people have done projects to link it into other stuff. One had built a unit which did nothing more than sit in the middle passively sniffing the traffic to log what the boiler was doing. Another built a device that could sit in the middle and take over under control from their computer - as well as monitoring. Both of these would probably be possible with proprietary protocols - though a lot harder since I doubt the manufacturers like giving away any of their secrets.

4) Also because of 2, you may well have problems when trying to do something beyond "combi + rads" or "DHW cylinder + rads" - which seems to be the limit of the majority of plumbers (sorry if that sounds condescending, I speak as I find). How many proprietary systems cope with buffer tank plus second pump for the rads ? How many cope without any problems having other heat sources (solar thermal, heat pump, wood burner, etc) into a buffer tank ?

5) If each manufacturer does their own thing, then installers and maintainers need to learn as many systems as there are manufacturers. If everyone used open standards, you'd only need to learn the open standard(s) plus perhaps a little extra for each manufacturer.
5b) and that follows into diagnostics kit. If everything was (for example) OpenTherm, then you would only need one diagnostics unit to be able to work on any system. But then, I guess the majority of plumbers don't carry any diagnostics kit beyond a ready supply of parts to swap :rolleyes:
 
from a schematic point of view to design in the use of compensation controls it makes not a jot of difference if you use proprietary or OT controls... in fact all boilers with a form of bus communication (up until recently) also provided a widget to convert from OT to proprietary bus systems (KM for viessman, ebus for vaillant etc...) they had to.

so for example to run two compensated circuits one for heating and one for hot water will always require controls that distinguish the call for heat from a cylinder sensor or a from a compensation controller for the heating....the hydronics do not change...

some installs do determine what manufacturers you select... for example a boiler with a cylinder in the same room, viessmann is optimum as it has a valve in side the boiler. if the cylinder is remote than vaillant and atag have a remote valve that connects back to the boiler.

I think it puts the emphasis on the installer to know their product offerings...

of course OT would open a huge permutations for all of us...but sadly controls manufacturers aren't promoting it in the UK
 
on larger multi zone systems of course there are comprehensive solutions (OT and proprietary) that allow multi zoning and seamless integration with renewables...but because OT is not generally promoted in the UK then these options are not really seen.

I peter to see all this as a failure of the manufacturers to promote rather than a failure of installers to understand.
 
he only wants to know how much room he needs, not you lot spunking over your favourite equipment :LOL: :LOL:

That's so funny.

£10,000 materials and £10,000 labour so that two people can shower at the same time while someone else 'might' shave. All served from plant that the OP will have that he hopes can be serviced by an ordinary heating engineer plumber because he can't find anyone to look after a thermal store.

As for sophisticated control systems I'm all for them but manufacturers are still running training courses for guys who can't suss out or wire up S, Y, W or C plans that have been around for 35 years never mind controls that actually talk to each other rather than say simply go - stop. (Yes Alec I know it's the manufacturers's fault).

OP, good luck but choose an engineer at least 15-20 years from retirement age because you're going to need him.

Please make allowances for me, I don't usually comment like this but I've had a hard day.
 
Obviously the boiler manufacturers want people to use their controls - that's why they aren't providing/selling open standards. I see a number of issues with that :

First of all, I have to say I agree with most of what you wrote so I'm playing devil’s advocate here... :)

There are companies that have innovated, changed their entire industry and kept propriety standards! Think Apple. :!:

This industry is way behind the times from a technology POV, however it's all about giving the customer what they want. The customer will know very little about what's available or the pro's / con's for their installation so they rely on their chosen installer (being their point of contact) and the installer relies on the manufacturer(s) for the information.

Compare that to other more developed markets for similar value products and the proposition is very different. Imagine leaving the choice of which £xx,000 car to buy to your local mechanic, it just wouldn't happen.

I notice Vaillant's new range released this month have features such as;

"Self adjusting range rating function", "Self diagnostic checks" (every 30 seconds), "QR codes on all major components" and "Installation wizard to guide the installer through the correct set up and commissioning of the boiler on first ignition – saving time and effort for the installer and ensure the installation is right first time" shown prominently in their marketing material!

These are great new features (if they work) however it looks like they are using technology to help the installer, rather than the customer per se (remember the "installer" is their customer!)

The industry needs a company to come along with a technologically advanced product, perhaps someone from the CE industry or an upstart, to really shake things up. Sooner or later it will happen, and today’s heating control systems will change forever.
 

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