How much space required for this plant room?

[ALEC1]

Sorry Alec, I don't like same manufacturer solutions especially Viessmann, and I don't like your suggestions even more. Back up has always been the first consideration, and if I was spending £10, £20, or even £30k on a top of the range system I would demand it.

This is a highly emotive sales pitch that really plays on the the insecurities of our clients..

Installed as design engineers suggest (i.e. a package from one manufacturer) these systems are reliable. Agile in one post says that two break downs in 7 years is about average for condensing boilers, but if you install as designed you can expect less than this.

Last week I went to an 7 year old Atag install looked after by BG with cylinder sensor, out door sensor and the proprietary control (i.e. as it would be installed in Holland by the design engineers presumably!). All I had to do was repressurise the expansion vessel.. That is a pretty common experience, but only when proprietary controls are used and you you follow boiler manufacturers schematics...

 

[doitall]

Yes Alec as Simon said everyone has their own opinion of what's best and i agree, as said on page one.

But tell me, what percentage of heating engineers would know the Brain Q, brain Z OT or Mad Q.

perhaps 1% or would say more. It does sort of restrict the total engineers available when you break down, and even then most would turn up and not know what the hell they are looking at.

 

[SimonH2]

But tell me, what percentage of heating engineers would know the Brain Q, brain Z OT or Mad Q.

perhaps 1% or would say more. It does sort of restrict the total engineers available when you break down, and even then most would turn up and not know what the hell they are looking at.

That's a fairly sad indictment of the industry.

While I wouldn't expect ever boilerman to know every control system, or even more than a small number "inside out", there really is no excuse for someone who claims to be able to work on boilers to not know the basics (ie to at least "know what the hell they are looking at"). On the flip side, I do get the impression that manufacturers aren't exactly doing their bit in some cases - eg by not making it easy for "not approved" people to get hold of the right manuals (and in some cases I'd guess software as well). I hazard a guess that in many cases "approved" means having done manufacturer courses which isn't practical for most small businesses given the number of manufacturers and the rate at which they bring out "new stuff".

It's the same, but on a much bigger scale, in my line of work (IT). You can do courses and exams that are in effect more study/work than doing a degree - and that's only for one manufacturer. And we have the "bulls***ers" in our industry too - those who'll claim knowledge in stuff they know nowt about

 

[doitall]

Problem is Simon the Manufacturers are adding fancy software and computer programs etc and generally creating a market where if you haven't been on their course and don't have all the latest hi tec kit, you have no chance.

That then leads to a select few that can work on the custards boilers, and charge what they like knowing there's no choice.

Now we come to Alec and his pretty controls connected to Viessmann all in one package boiler, and you have exactly the above problem, very limited choice when it goes wrong.

 

[indus]

Thanks guys.

Alec, what are the names of the 'controls' that are being discussed? I'd like to look into them and see what they are all about.

Thanks

 

[SimonH2]

Problem is Simon the Manufacturers are adding fancy software and computer programs etc and generally creating a market where if you haven't been on their course and don't have all the latest hi tec kit, you have no chance.

That then leads to a select few that can work on the custards boilers, and charge what they like knowing there's no choice.

That's exactly what I mean - why isn't "the industry" (do you have a trade body ?) turning round to the manufacturers and telling them to get their house in order ?
Never mind, I guess that whatever a trade body decides (we're boycotting <manufacturer X> until they adopt standards) there will be enough plumbers who won't care as long as they get their holiday (or whatever the trade promotion is this year) out of fitting them. Equally, I guess those same people will be happy to tell customers that this proprietary setup is the best thing since sliced bread and ignore any standards based options.
Sorry if that sounds cynical ...

Hmm, when I read that back, it more or less describes my own industry as well. It matters not how many of us rail against Microsoft's "non-standards", there are far too many people who seem quite happy to use MS's product list as their sales catalogue


Alex - do I assume you are talking about OpenTherm http://www.opentherm.eu/pages/what.html ?

EDIT: Ah, I see why manufacturers don't do Opentherm - there's a licence cost. That will also be why the EU has dropped mandating it, I don't think it's legal to mandate something which creates an actual monopoly as this would (as in, to sell a boiler in the EU would mandate being a member of a private association).

 

[ALEC1]

weather compensation with any boiler manufacturer will take you to the right controls...this is mandatory in Germany so the product offering is very comprehensive

Viessman has the vititronic 200, vaillant the 470, both of which can control a mixing valve possibly two, and a direct circuit. vaillants vr65 will allow the use of an on-off stat for the hotwater, which you will need if you opt for two cylinders.

I think Worcester Bosch have the FX range, but am not sure.

The controls are brand specific..so you cannot mix and match.

 

[ALEC1]

I guess those same people will be happy to tell customers that this proprietary setup is the best thing...

yes thats me... it provides the client with a seamless and integrated install that does what it is programmed to do assuming all other things are correct. The programming actually moves the commissioning to limited "head stuff" and "button pushing" so you do need to know what you are doing...

The end user gets a better system in terms of comfort efficiency and reliability.

All these things can be achieved by mix and matching controls with opentherm, but the controls industry does not promote opentherm controls in the UK, despite their being a wide range available in other european countries.

Manufacturers cite no demand for OT as a reason for not having it and, Installers think they are being clever to resist the adoption of technology due to lack of evidence of improvements and savings , but they play straight into the hands of the suits who have just out manoeuvred them

In short this is corporate britain.....

 

[doitall]

Funny you should mention BMW. I have one sat in a garage in Spain, on it's 6th PCB in as many years.

Not sure why you didn't post the weight of the cylinder or the width and hight for that matter.

Haven't seen any personal abuse since your last visit, feel free to link to it.

 

[gaswizzard]

OK , how would these two 210 litre cylinders be plumbed , series or parallel and why?

May aswell have a discussion on this while were at it.

 

[Agile]

Two 300 li plumbed in parallel. 420 li total is unlikely to meet the OP's stated demands.

Parallel, because series will create too high series flow resistance for HW.

In many ways I suspect they would be better each dedicated to two particular bath/shower rooms. But I appreciate there is a good argument that the combined resource is better able to meet unusual demand patterns.

Tony

 

[mickyg]

if youve got good pressure and flow i think in series is better personally, just so customer can only heat the 2nd one at low usage, save gas. Not gonna get too involved in this thread though cos its a bit silly. You've got a sales rep for viessman with an obviously biased opinion another guy who doesnt want to fit 2 cylinders cos he's not sure how to measure the water temp and provide priority....oh dear It can be done, quite easily, even with WC, but unfortunately it doesn't come in a box with a pretty picture to show where to plug everything in
Dont stop though, its fun reading

 

[doitall]

You will have to have a secondary circuit, therefore the two cylinder need to be as one.

A reverse return on the primary and secondary is simple, and both cylinders are blended with equal draw-off.

Can't be connected any other way, unless you have two separate hot water systems, which defeats the object.

And Tony we have already proved the two cylinders will more than cope with the demand.

 

[ALEC1]

The advantage of adopting technology and following boiler schematics provided by the manufacturer is that systems work in such away that the are issue free designing out standing losses. It is true that I stick rigidly to what comes in the books, no shame in doing things a way that has been researched and considered.

Using on-off switching for cylinder heating which can be done with Vaillant and Atag just removes the added value of the controls...

We haven't quite got to the stage where gas is so expensive that every degree matters, but it's not far away... Precision does enable energy savings, on-off stats at very imprecise...Then there is the anti legionella programme and the burner profile software that gets ignored with a simple stat....


Not following a schematic seems to be a compromise to me... Others may think differently though

 

[Dan Robinson]

Thermistors are far from reliable too Alec.

And you can have on/off cylinder controls with compensation for heating with no struggle whatsoever.

There is a lot to be said for off the shelf controls.

TPi programmable stats for the heating zones.

Compensation to the boiler for heating.

Standard cylinder controls are perfectly adequate.