How much space required for this plant room?

You lot are wasting your time. This one's on a winder...

18 pages here....
//www.diynot.com/forums/plumbing/mega-flo-vs-thermal-store.291880/

Another 4 here...
//www.diynot.com/forums/plumbing/help-speccing-a-new-heating-dhw-system.297149/

And another 7 here.....
//www.diynot.com/forums/plumbing/how-much-space-required-for-this-plant-room.319865/

Even Drwaterjonasbigburnerdrivels has been involved to no avail.



Not quite sure what you mean and I take exception to your comment.

The first thread was a TS vs unvented cylinder thread, on the basis of that thread I decided I didn't want another TS. The loft conversion was just about to start at that time and I thought I would install the new system then.

But I decided to wait until the second stage of my extension work was done. The loft conversion is finished by the way.

I only got full planning for the final stage of extension work about two months ago and only then knew exactly the size of the final build.

The second thread you have linked to was me trying to understand how to spec the new system . Which I thought I had done and decided.

The third thread you've linked to IS THIS THREAD If you notice I did not ask originally in this thread about the spec of the system, JUST SPACE requirements. I had more or less made my mind up on the basis of the second thread. AND WHAT IS THE POINT OF PROVIDING A LINK TO THE VERY THREAD THAT WE ARE ALL ON?

However comments on this thread made me wonder whether I may have made the wrong decisions in terms of spec and it may be worth reconsidering/making changes.


So I am not sure on what basis you have decided to call me a wind up merchant. If you have no constructive advice to offer..........
 
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I think it was a great thread, and my original comments at the start of the thread still stands.

You cannot size a room until you know what you want to put in it.
 
Thanks guys, I'm very appreciative of all the advice. I'm sorry if it seems as though you are having to repeat yourselves/go around in circles. Look at it from my point of view, one person says one thing, I try and understand it and then another person says it's incorrect anyway!

Very confusing for somebody like me who isn't in the trade

Can I just ask a couple of final questions please? (sorry if you have already answered this but sometimes the lingo is difficult for me to decipher)

1) If you have two cylinders I take it that it's not difficult to get them to run sequentially? In other words the first cylinder gives it's 210 litres for the first two 20 min showers, then when the temp drops water is taken from the second cylinder? I take it this is the whole point of two cylinders?


2) That then just leaves me to figure out what would be better in terms of recovery time, two 210 cylinders or one twin coil 500 litre. I'll go back over the thread and read the arguments to try and figure it out.


Many thanks
 
yes two cylinders can be connected in series (sequentially). The disadvantage is where do you measure the temperature, given that a decent systm will only have one cylinder sensor wired back to the boiler for hot water priority...it would be possible but unnecessarily complicated to empty one then the other cylinder...so one cylinder would feed the other


Other disadvantages relate to higher install cost of two cylinders, and hgher standing lossess.


Much better to have one cylinder of 500l, with decent sized coils thus reducing recovery time, hot water priority using proprietary controls from the boiler manufacturers..and weather compensation on the heating...
 
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Look at it from my point of view, one person says one thing, I try and understand it and then another person says it's incorrect anyway!
The problem is that there are many ways to achieve the same thing. There isn't one way which is "correct", just different sets of tradeoffs. Even the best heating engineer will have personal preferences which will bias the solution he recommends, and of course there are a fair few in the trade who really only understand the "stuff they use personally" (you've already found this trying to get someone who understands a thermal store which is in fact much simpler than a combi boiler :rolleyes:)
1) If you have two cylinders I take it that it's not difficult to get them to run sequentially? In other words the first cylinder gives it's 210 litres for the first two 20 min showers, then when the temp drops water is taken from the second cylinder? I take it this is the whole point of two cylinders?
I think everyone is suggesting they'll just be connected in parallel to get a larger capacity. From comments, I'm getting the feeling that there are two reasons - two smaller cylinders being "common" are cheaper than one larger cylinder; and the coil capacity vs volume ratio is higher for the smaller cylinder so 2off smaller cylinders can reheat faster.
2) That then just leaves me to figure out what would be better in terms of recovery time, two 210 cylinders or one twin coil 500 litre.
As above, from comments it sounds like the bigger cylinders don't have heating coils which are scaled in capacity as the cylinder size increases. So while the bigger cylinder will hold more hot water, it will reheat more slowly because it's coil isn't as powerful as 2x the coils in the smaller cylinders.

On the "twin coil" question. Some people are suggesting they'd use the twin coil cylinders and connect the coils in series. This means that if (say) a cylinder had a 30kW "boiler" coil and a 20kW "solar" coil, putting them in series would (in theory) give you a coil capable of transferring 50kW. I think someone suggested the smaller cylinder came with twin coils as standard but the larger ones don't - so that would be another reason for using 2off smaller cylinders.

2 smaller cylinders will have a different space requirement as well. While less efficient in space utilisation, 2 smaller cylinders would take more length along a wall but would project less - so rather than having to size a room wide enough to work round the big cylinder and have excess space elsewhere, it may allow you to have a narrower room (there's also the issue of fitting larger cylinders through doorways/gaps if you need to replace it later).

So many variables, no "right" or "wrong" answers, that's why you get so many different opinions. Your requirements could be made to work with many options (subject to things like gas supply limits) - combi, vented cylinder, unvented cylinder, thermal store, heat bank, single vs multiple cylinder, single vs multiple boiler, etc, etc. None are "wrong", just different tradeoffs - and everyone has their own ideas as to why their favourite is "best".
 
1) If you have two cylinders I take it that it's not difficult to get them to run sequentially? In other words the first cylinder gives it's 210 litres for the first two 20 min showers, then when the temp drops water is taken from the second cylinder? I take it this is the whole point of two cylinders?

This is the last thing you want, the two cylinders must be as one.

One large cylinder has many disadvantages over two.

Weight even when empty can be a problem unless you have a fork lift and or crane on site.

Size is always a problem in a domestic property.

Breakdown and repairs.

Two cylinders give you back up the same as two boilers. Stick all you eggs in one basket, and I think you know what happens when you need an emergency plumber, all or nothing, and go without till they decide to turn up.

Sorry Alec, I don't like same manufacturer solutions especially Viesmann, and I don't like your suggestions even more. Back up has always been the first consideration, and if I was spending £10, £20, or even £30k on a top of the range system I would demand it.

And you'll notice even the pump set has two pumps. Nothing lasts as it used too, so the best options is double everything up, space is not a problem, so the only consideration is cost.
 
Thanks Simon. You are of course right there are many ways to skin a cat as there are with most things in life. Thanks for the fantastic explanation and as I said that TS is still yours if you want it (as promised last year)

It is well knackered now though as I get hot water in the shower for about 10 mins and then it goes tepid. The coil must be buggered.

DIO: thanks very much for all your advice. I know which direction I'll be heading in and therefore roughly what my space requirements will be. Unfortunately it's more than I first thought but that just means I don't get a study in the new extension.
But getting the heating/hot water is more important.

Thanks again to everybody for their kind advice.
 
Putting two cylinders in series doubles the HW flow resistance and would make the OP's system unable to deliver to all four outlets properly at the same time.

My budget solution would be two 300 li cylinders reheated at leisure by just one boilerat 28 kW. If that boiler failed then the electric immersions would still reheat the water.

One of the most significant aspects of this design relates to the water supply. That has to be decided before sizing the room. Yet the OP has no idea of the dynamic flow rate.

Tony
 
Putting two cylinders in series doubles the HW flow resistance and would make the OP's system unable to deliver to all four outlets properly at the same time.

My budget solution would be two 300 li cylinders reheated at leisure by just one boilerat 28 kW. If that boiler failed then the electric immersions would still reheat the water.

One of the most significant aspects of this design relates to the water supply. That has to be decided before sizing the room. Yet the OP has no idea of the dynamic flow rate.

Tony

Tony Please, stop going off on something you know nothing about.

How many cylinder was at Bassett road, and capable of over 100 Ltrs/min.

With the right solution it could easily run all the showers and the kitchen at the same time.

As I said before, why would the OP know or even want to know the Dynamic pressure, that's the installers need to know.

As for the mains, we know it couldn't possibly meet the demand without a booster.
 
Until the dynamic mains flow rate is known it is not possible to size the pumped storage required. That could be a significant floor area.

Your Bassett Rd cylinder was an expensive industrial style cylinder with larger connections than the normal cheaper domestic cylinders.

Tony
 
Don't need to know, calculate the maximum daily water use, and add 25%, that = the storage.

The mains has 24hrs to recover.
 
Until the dynamic mains flow rate is known it is not possible to size the pumped storage required. That could be a significant floor area.

Tony


Tony, I'm not building the install as we speak. The build starts within the next few months once my builder is free from his current job. Before that a heating engineer will be chosen and final spec sorted.

We will be having an extension that runs the entire depth of the house so it will be 50ft x 10ft. I've been trying to figure out what to do with the space prior to the build starting. Most of it has been allocated but there is a space of 15ft x10ft up for grabs.

My original plan was to split it

1) Plant room 7ft X 10ft

2) Study room 8ft x 10ft

It seems from the information in this thread that I cannot achieve that ie the plant room needs to be bigger. So I'll leave the whole space for the plant room ie 15ft x 10ft. I'm pretty sure I can fit a 2 cylinders, pumps and an adequate break tank into that?


Even then we are talking about internal partition walls the position of which can be put anywhere when building. So if I need a bit of extra space it's no big deal.

So though I understand the importance of sizing the break tank carefully with relation to my dynamic flow rate, I don't have to do that right this minute. Just knowing that I need to leave space for a ruddy big one is enough.

Thanks
 
Don't need to know, calculate the maximum daily water use, and add 25%, that = the storage.

The mains has 24hrs to recover.


Thanks. As a back of the envelope calculation what would that be dio?

Assuming the 4 x 20 minute showers mentioned and the usual other domestic requirements + some slack?

Thanks :)
 
4 Bar static pressure and a 32 mm supply pipe all the way should give a pretty good flow rate. Usually enough for two good showers.

But these things cannot be guessed at and do need to be measured.

Tony
 
4 Bar static pressure and a 32 mm supply pipe all the way should give a pretty good flow rate. Usually enough for two good showers.

But these things cannot be guessed at and do need to be measured.

Tony

17Ltrs/min the OP is getting Tony. Think you'll agree not enough.

Not working anything out, I would guess 1.5sq x 1m high, or if the space dictates the size 1.5m high and a 1m sq. Strangely the later holds more water.

Do a google for deweywaters, and they'll give you a price for a sectional tank.

The inlet and outlet can be positioned where best so that information needs to be added at some stage.
 

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