Input or Output Wattage

In free air? (-ish).
Table 4F3A is silent about 'installation method', but I would imagine the assumption is that, by their very nature, 'flexible cords' usually are in free air (or -ish).

One would need to do the sums, but I don't believe that German (for example) safety culture is intrinsically more lax than ours.
I'm a bit lost. I find it hard to imagine any sums you could do would get an answer of 16A or more for the CCC of a cable with a tabulated CCC of 3A - and UK safety culture (aka BS7671) requires the In of the OPD to be no greater than the Iz of the cable.

Kind Regards, John.
 
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In free air? (-ish).

One would need to do the sums, but I don't believe that German (for example) safety culture is intrinsically more lax than ours.
I have not seen double fuses in German equipment which can have the line and neutral swapped. Yes often twin pole switching but the larger equipment clearly does lack some of our safety features.

They seem to not bother using conduit bends they just free air between two lengths of conduit.

Although the rules say all personal safety switches and relays should be red or yellow they use black. This caused me to lose use of my right hand as machine restarted having thought all safeties were in place.

They also used single wire safety switches where if un-reversible damage is likely to be caused if they fail twin circuit types should be used.

I could fill pages with the low safety standards used by Germans. Clearly they also know their own failings hence getting rid of all nuclear power stations.

It is because their sockets are so bad and don't have shutters that we have been flooded with the plastic shutter disabling plugs so our sockets can become more dangerous too. However not as bad as theirs as you can't reverse our plugs.

The problem is of course we are use to living in this country where maybe because in the past safety was very low we now have a very safe system. So we as a result take less care.

Most accidents are not caused by a single fault. In my case 8 faults we combined that allowed it to happen including another electrician having a key for my lock. But 4 were down to German design so don't try telling me the German system is safe.
 
They seem to not bother using conduit bends they just free air between two lengths of conduit.
Makes cable replacement much easier.

Although the rules say all personal safety switches and relays should be red or yellow they use black.
Different country, different rules.

I could fill pages with the low safety standards used by Germans.
I could do the same for many UK factories. And fill books for some other european countries. But the workers seem to be more aware of self protection than the nannny state proted workers in the UK.


we now have a very safe system. So we as a result take less care.
The system is promoted as being safe but as a result the work place is less safe from the un-foreseen and unprepared for accidents.
 
I'm a bit lost. I find it hard to imagine any sums you could do would get an answer of 16A or more for the CCC of a cable with a tabulated CCC of 3A - and UK safety culture (aka BS7671) requires the In of the OPD to be no greater than the Iz of the cable.
That's overload protection. I was talking about fault protection.
 
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I'm a bit lost. I find it hard to imagine any sums you could do would get an answer of 16A or more for the CCC of a cable with a tabulated CCC of 3A - and UK safety culture (aka BS7671) requires the In of the OPD to be no greater than the Iz of the cable.
That's overload protection. I was talking about fault protection.
Ah, apologies, I missed that little word - primarily because we seemed to be talking about overload protection, so I 'saw what I expected to see'. Anyway, you're very probably right about the fault protection, but is there not a need for overload protection as well?

Kind Regards, John
 
How does a single appliance generate an overload?
When it develops a short circuit. When someone turns all the ring on a 7Kw hob connected to a 13 amp socket with a solid bar in the fuse holder.

Protection has to protect the wiring of the fool's house no matter what the fool may do.
 
How does a single appliance generate an overload?
Interesting one!

I guess it depends on the definitions of 'fault' and 'overload'. In terms of 'faults', BS7671 only seems to consider 'dead shorts' ('bolted shorts'). As we've discussed before, providing protection from lesser faults can be difficult - but it's certainly far from impossible that it can happen (e.g. shorting of one section of a motor winding etc.). For that reason, it certainly seems to make sense to have protection which will operate if the current goes appreciably above the CCC of the supply cable(s).

I've never really thought too deeply about this before, since it's not something that one expects to see in practice, even though 433.3.1(ii) allows the cable to a single fixed load to have only fault protection. For example, if one had a dedicated circuit supplying a single load (say immersion heater), perhaps wired in 1.5mm² cable, I'm sure that most eyebrows would be raised if that cable were protected by, say, a 32A or 40A MCB, even though that quite probably (haven't checked!) would usually afford adequate fault protection (against 'bolted shorts'). Would you regard that as a reasonable practice?

Kind Regards, John.
 
I wasn't expecting a debate but it is quite interesting to read.

Just out of curiosity

I happen to note that the gas cooker, with a power supply for the ignition is fitted with a 13amp fuse. Couldn't find a rating plate on the cooker but the manual says that it should have a 13amp fuse fitted. Surely this is a little on the high side, if the only thing its plugged into the mains for is to generate a spark to ignite the gas?
 
I wasn't expecting a debate but it is quite interesting to read. Just out of curiosity
I happen to note that the gas cooker, with a power supply for the ignition is fitted with a 13amp fuse. Couldn't find a rating plate on the cooker but the manual says that it should have a 13amp fuse fitted. Surely this is a little on the high side, if the only thing its plugged into the mains for is to generate a spark to ignite the gas?
That's another debate you could trigger, but I'll try not to start it! The standard traditional answer is that the fuse is only there to protect the cable (cable to the gas cooker), not what is beyond that cable (i.e. the igniters in the cooker)- so, if the cable is meaty enough to take 13A, then a 13A fuse is 'appropriate'. Some of us feel more like the way you are thinking!!

Kind Regards,John.
 
I wasn't expecting a debate but it is quite interesting to read.

Just out of curiosity

I happen to note that the gas cooker, with a power supply for the ignition is fitted with a 13amp fuse. Couldn't find a rating plate on the cooker but the manual says that it should have a 13amp fuse fitted. Surely this is a little on the high side, if the only thing its plugged into the mains for is to generate a spark to ignite the gas?

...... but you would best be guided by the manufacturers instructions - do you have a copy? Can you obtain one online? Failing that speak to their customer services department.
 
If the fuse is there only to protect the wire and the fuse wire is always a tiny fraction of the combined CSA of the wire, (as is the case), why not just fit every appliance with a 13 Amp fuse?

To put it another way, is there a condition whereby a 3 or 5 Amp appliance will dangerously draw, let’s say, 7 or 10 Amps without either: -

A) The thing just failing

B) The operator knowing it's failing, faulty, overheating etc. or..

C) Tripping the MCB in the consumer unit?

As we all know, a fuse is a very crude device and their rating is miles off the mark, especially when it comes to surges.

My point is this: if you say it's something other than 'it's to protect the wire' I can't see why a 13 Amp fuse wouldn't suffice in every case?
 
If the fuse is there only to protect the wire and the fuse wire is always a tiny fraction of the combined CSA of the wire, (as is the case), why not just fit every appliance with a 13 Amp fuse?
Because many flexible cables are rated to carry far less than 13A - say 3A or 6A, and a 13A fuse will allow a lot more than 13A to flow before blowing. As for your argument about CSAs, the cable will suffer serious damage long before it gets to the ;point of 'popping' like the fuse wire.

To put it another way, is there a condition whereby a 3 or 5 Amp appliance will dangerously draw, let’s say, 7 or 10 Amps without either: -
A) The thing just failing
B) The operator knowing it's failing, faulty, overheating etc. or..
C) Tripping the MCB in the consumer unit?
That sounds like a totally different question, rather than 'putting it another way'! Anyway, you're getting close to 'the debate'! (B) may well not happen - e.g. the operator may be somewhere else! As for (C), "drawing 7or 10 Amps" obviously wouldn't trip an MCB on a socket circuit - commonly 32A, and virtually never less than 16A. That leaves one with (A), which is where debate occurs.

My point is this: if you say it's something other than 'it's to protect the wire' I can't see why a 13 Amp fuse wouldn't suffice in every case?
Particularly in the case of very low current loads (e.g. many electronic devices), for which a 1A or 3A fuse may well be adequate), some of us believe that it's prudent to use as low a rating of fuse as possible in order to possibly limit internal damage (and maybe even fires, if some very fine wires are within the equipment) from currents which would not trip an MCB. A ,ot of the debate is about how likely it is that a fault would occur in such equipment which would result in excessive current but not enough to trip and MCB.

Kind ReEgards, John.
 
My point is this: if you say it's something other than 'it's to protect the wire' I can't see why a 13 Amp fuse wouldn't suffice in every case?

The insulation on flexible cable rated at 3 amps safe carrying current started to melt when the flex was tested at 9 amps. ( Quality assurance testing of materials for a new product )

With a 13 amp fuse, depending on its current / time rating, a short in the flex could have as much a 6 Kw of power "liberated" at the short circuit ( fuse carries 26 amps for a short while before melting ).
 

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