I'll have a re-think about the layout... this is for a stairs light switch and power to an under-stairs cabinet.
My Complete DIY Rewire
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I'll have a re-think about the layout... this is for a stairs light switch and power to an under-stairs cabinet.
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Have you asked yourself the questions I raised?
If you have, then do you have answers you can share with us?
If rings are so excellent, how come not one other country (apart from those which used to be under our influence in one way or another) has ever adopted them?
Secondly, and in considering this I would ask you to also consider the trend, which has been going on for quite some time, for the Wiring Regulations to have new and changed provisions added which do increase safety, but by very small amounts, and therefore that you think about the attitude to safety which this betokens.
Imagine that we did not have ring finals, and were still using 15/16A radials, and that you went to the IET and said "I've an idea. If we introduced fused plugs, and fused connection units, and as long as we specified that cables had to be OK for 20A, and as long as we told people that they had to make sure that they didn't overload sections of it, and as long as we told them not to have more than one socket on an unfused branch, and as long as we made sure electricians did some extra testing to confirm it was sound, we could use 2.5mm² cable wired in a ring from a 32A breaker"
Do you really think they would say "Brilliant idea, John - we cannot see any flaws in it, and we'll change the regulations to allow it at the earliest opportunity."?
Really?
Wasn't that more or less what happened in the 1940s?
Circumstances (and safety standards) were different then. The fact that it was expedient and acceptable 70 years ago does not mean that it would be seen as either today.
Safety standards have changed beyond recognition in some areas - try putting a new car on the market built as if it were the 1940s and see how far you get, for example.
Practices allowed by the Wiring Regulations in the 1940s would merit a C2 today.
So if we didn't have them today, do you think that the IET would countenance their introduction today?
And if not, why not, if they are so wonderful?
Safety standards have changed beyond recognition in some areas - try putting a new car on the market built as if it were the 1940s and see how far you get, for example.
Practices allowed by the Wiring Regulations in the 1940s would merit a C2 today.
So if we didn't have them today, do you think that the IET would countenance their introduction today?
And if not, why not, if they are so wonderful?
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But "Ye cannae change the laws of physics Jim!"
In what way(s) is a radial safer than a ring final?
Only one way I can think of. If one has a 32A ring final wired with cable with a 20A CCC then, if one plugs in a full 32A's worth of load close to one end of the ring, the cable between there and the CU might get 'a little overloaded'. With a 32A radial, wired with appropriate cable, 32A's worth of load cannot 'overload' the cable at all, no matter where it is plugged in.
However, I don't think even the worst case of that (with a ring final) would have any appreciable consequences, so it's hardly a 'real' issue. Mind you, I have to be careful what I'm saying, because that's not far from saying that it would be OK to have a 2.5mm² radial protected by a 32A OPD - which would clearly not be regarded as acceptable (even though it would be exceedingly unlikely to 'come to harm')
Kind Regards, John
Just a wee reality check, if you have any doubts about the Uk wiring system, take a trip to USA, bloody horrific Wendy House wiring systems, fisher price plugs 
We have the best and safest wiring system in the world when installed by professionals.
Regards,
DS
We have the best and safest wiring system in the world when installed by professionals.
Regards,
DS
You can't create an undersized branch using the same size cable.
You can't dangerously overload any of it because In ≤ Iz.
You can't get a functionally undetectable break in a live conductor which makes the circuit dangerous.
Will you please answer the question - if we had never had them, do you genuinely think that anybody would countenance their introduction today?
Things which are completely unrelated to the use of radials instead of ring finals.
Unless, of course, you can present a cogent and intelligently reasoned explanation of why not having ring finals has a causal relationship with " bloody horrific Wendy House wiring systems" and "fisher price plugs".
Feel free to do so.
Really?
You really think that if you went to the IET and said "I've an idea. If we introduced fused plugs, and fused connection units, and as long as we specified that cables had to be OK for 20A, and as long as we told people that they had to make sure that they didn't overload sections of it, and as long as we told them not to have more than one socket on an unfused branch, and as long as we made sure electricians did some extra testing to confirm it was sound, we could use 2.5mm² cable wired in a ring from a 32A breaker", that they would say "Brilliant idea, DS - we cannot see any flaws in it, and we'll change the regulations to allow it at the earliest opportunity."?
You really think that if you went to the IET and said "I've an idea. If we introduced fused plugs, and fused connection units, and as long as we specified that cables had to be OK for 20A, and as long as we told people that they had to make sure that they didn't overload sections of it, and as long as we told them not to have more than one socket on an unfused branch, and as long as we made sure electricians did some extra testing to confirm it was sound, we could use 2.5mm² cable wired in a ring from a 32A breaker", that they would say "Brilliant idea, DS - we cannot see any flaws in it, and we'll change the regulations to allow it at the earliest opportunity."?
In the absence of quotes, I'm not sure whether that was directed at me - but if it was (it did immediately follow my post), then you must surely realise that you are 'preaching to the converted'?Just a wee reality check, if you have any doubts about the Uk wiring system, take a trip to USA, bloody horrific Wendy House wiring systems, fisher price plugs
Indeed, and even when installed by non-professionals, if it's done properly!
Kind Regards, John
Given what I understand to be the original design parameters, the answer is yes.
Your comments relate to the relationship between the CCC of the cable and the choice of protective device, not to the choice of a radial or ring.
No, of course they wouldn't accept it. They would of course send you away to BSI, to present a proposal to JPEL/64 for an amendment.
Can either of you explain the causal relationship between that and the use of ring finals?
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