Part P Building Regs

[alexnic]

looking for some clarity on what is applicable for Scotland and the Part P Building Regs.

As far as I'm aware, The Building Regs (England / Wales) are not applicable in Scotland, as we use The Buildings Standards (Scotland)Regulations and have always (for example) had to notify the local council planning dept. of any electrical alterations and sign a certificate / form to that effect.

We do have to be classed as 'competant' to do so but not necessarily have to be NICEIC registered.

So will there be major changes for us?

PS Our local Council have no current (excuse the pun) knowledge of the new forthcoming changes for Electrical work

 

[GwaiLo]

I have no idea about Scotland, but I can clear up the "competency" issue and Part P.

Once upon a time the only people who could issue a valid certificate of completion for Building Regs was an LA Building Control Officer.

The the government decided to introduce some competition, albeit limited competition and the NHBC sprung up to take advantage of it. Since then things have been further liberalised and there are many Private building inspector who will do the job for you.

More recently something called self certification has been introduced. I think the first thing to get it was Gas Appliances and Corgi applied for and was granted permission to run a self certification scheme. This has been extended to other areas including Plumbing and Window Installation, and it is likely that similar permissions will be granted in relation to electrical work. In order to self certify you will have to be a member of an organisation which has permission to operate a self certification scheme and it is they who will decide if you can self certify.

All of the other options remain open, including having work certified by the LA or a Private Inspector.

 

[alexnic]

Cheers for the info! .... I'm a spark myself and I was just curious as to the implementation of Part P in Scotland V's our current Building Regulation body

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The first paragraph of the consultation doc on the ODPM website says:

"This draft Regulatory Impact Assessment (RIA) addresses the proposal to introduce into the Building Regulations requirements for the safety of fixed electrical installations in dwellings. The Building Regulations do not address this issue at present although the Building Standards (Scotland) Regulations do. The proposals are described in the draft of a new Approved Document P in Part 2 of this consultation document. "

And then a bit later, in the list of "by-product" benefits:

"harmonising the scope of the Building Regulations with those in Scotland. "

Which seems to imply that things aren't changing for you guys, and what's proposed for us is the same, or almost, as your current regulatory framework.

That raises a couple of interesting questions. If you don't have to be a member of NICEIC, who decides if you are "competent"? And if a Scottish DIY-er does his own electrical work, how does he get it certified?

 

[Millennium_Boy]

Perhaps he can call the Electricity Board to certify it.

 

[GwaiLo]

ban all sheds

That raises a couple of interesting questions. If you don't have to be a member of NICEIC, who decides if you are "competent"? And if a Scottish DIY-er does his own electrical work, how does he get it certified?

Read my previous post. the answer is there.

The work only needs to be certified as being compliant with the regulations. It does not have to be carried out by the person who certifies or even by a person who is a competent workman. It matters not one bit whether the work complies because the workman was just lucky or whether he was skillful. If it complies, it complies.

Those who can certify will be those who are members of a body which has been given permission to operate a self certification scheme and meets the criteria set out by that body.

Do you understand now? It has nothing to do with work being done by a competent electrician. It is about comliance with the regulations being certified by a competent person. The worker and the certifier are no required to be the same person, although they may me.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

ban all sheds

That raises a couple of interesting questions. If you don't have to be a member of NICEIC, who decides if you are "competent"? And if a Scottish DIY-er does his own electrical work, how does he get it certified?

Read my previous post. the answer is there.

How can the answer possibly be there when my question was about Scottish regulations (not England and Wales Part P), and how "competency" is judged in Scotland, and your previous post began "I have no idea about Scotland, but I can clear up the "competency" issue and Part P."

The work only needs to be certified as being compliant with the regulations. It does not have to be carried out by the person who certifies or even by a person who is a competent workman. It matters not one bit whether the work complies because the workman was just lucky or whether he was skillful. If it complies, it complies.

Those who can certify will be those who are members of a body which has been given permission to operate a self certification scheme and meets the criteria set out by that body.

Do you understand now?

Yes thank you. Actually, I understood it perfectly well already, and if you read my question again, you should see that I wasn't asking whether work needs to be done by a "competent person".

It has nothing to do with work being done by a competent electrician. It is about comliance with the regulations being certified by a competent person. The worker and the certifier are no required to be the same person, although they may me.

OK - now you've repeated what we all know and accept, perhaps you could move away from the podium and allow Alexnic, our Scottish electrician to answer the questions I asked about how things work in Scotland.

We do have to be classed as 'competant' to do so but not necessarily have to be NICEIC registered

If you don't have to be a member of NICEIC, who decides if you are "competent"?

And as the situation of work not needing to be done by a "competent person", just certified by one, already exists in Scotland, and as BR in Ireland has already said "You'll probably find most electricians will inspect and test your wiring no problem but when it comes to issuing a third party completion certificate you may find reluctance. I myself would rarely issue such a certificate except in special circumstances.", I also asked

...if a Scottish DIY-er does his own electrical work, how does he get it certified?

Do you understand now?

 

[alexnic]

A nice 'healthy' debate ........

It's been a long time since I was actually employed in the contracting side of the game, been in factory maintenance for 20+years but it's nice to keep my hand in with a few re-wires now and again.

From what I remember when I was in full time contracting we would submit a card to the Electricity Board after an installation and they would come and inspect / pass (1st time if you were lucky) the installation and connect to their supply.

Recently over the last few years I have actually informed the Board that a re-wire was completed and the reply in most cases was 'we'll fit a 2-pole isolator, seal up the top side and leave the bottom connections for your tails' ... no offer or interest in testing the installation, our responsibility I was told.

If the work was part of a building warrant that required a completion certificate from the council, I would sign off the electrical side of the form as the 'competent' person (I am not NICEIC registered).
If the work was done by a DIY'r then he would require a 3rd party signature from someone else and as was mentioned before ...most people would be reluctant to do this, but the thing is ...any old Spark would do!

If there is no building warrent, it is very unlikely that the council are informed at all.

I suspect that this will all cease and there will be more inforcement of the rules in order to 'harmonize' the new Building Regulations with those of England and Wales ..... all for the better I think!

 

[renovator]

this

suggests that part P off the building regs will not be applied to scotland as electrical installations in dwelling are already covered by the Building Standards(scotland) Regulations apply.

Furthermore the Building Standards(scotland) Regulations already include a coverall competancy clause

"PART B: FITNESS OF MATERIALS AND WORKMANSHIP

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Provisions deemed to satisfy the standards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SELECTION AND USE OF MATERIALS, FITTINGS, AND COMPONENTS, AND WORKMANSHIP

(B2.1) Some methods of establishing workmanship are:

Compliance with BS 8000: Workmanship on building sites, or
Compliance with a equivalent technical specification which may include a national technical specification of other Member States, which are contracting parties to the European Economic Area, or

The workmanship is specified for a material, fitting, or component, covered by a national or European certificate issued by a European Technical Approvals issuing body, and the conditions of use are in accordance with the terms of the certificate, or

The workmanship may be covered by an equivalent technical approval (including a technical approval of another Member State of the European Organisation for Technical Approvals, EOTA), that provides an equivalent level of performance and the conditions of use are in accordance with the terms of the technical approval, or

The workmanship is covered by a scheme, which complies with the relevant recommendations of BS EN ISO 9000: Quality management and quality assurance standards. There are also independent schemes for accreditation and registration of installers of materials and products that provide a means of ensuring that the work has been carried out by knowledgeable contractors to an appropriate standard e.g. Council of Registered Gas Installers (CORGI), or

By use of past experience. Where it can be shown by experience, such as a building in use, that the method of workmanship is capable of performing the function for which it is intended, or

By use of recognised test methods. " see
this

 

[GwaiLo]

ban-all-sheds,

I am sorry but my post did say

"I have no idea about Scotland, but I can clear up the "competency" issue and Part P."

I wasn't attempting to address anything else.

You raised two questions "That raises a couple of interesting questions. If you don't have to be a member of NICEIC, who decides if you are "competent"? And if a Scottish DIY-er does his own electrical work, how does he get it certified?"

My post did answer the one relating to who decides if you are competent, which did not appear to refer explicity to Scotland.

I accept it did not answer the one about Scottish DIY-ers. But I had already said "I have no idea about Scotland".

So please read my posts in full before you get your knickers in a twist. I am often wrong and will always accept when I am, and when I have no idea about something I will say so...As I have here.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

OK - let's go through the sequence one more time...

1) alexnic wrote

____________________________________________________________

looking for some clarity on what is applicable for Scotland and the Part P Building Regs.

As far as I'm aware, The Building Regs (England / Wales) are not applicable in Scotland, as we use The Buildings Standards (Scotland)Regulations and have always (for example) had to notify the local council planning dept. of any electrical alterations and sign a certificate / form to that effect.

We do have to be classed as 'competant' to do so but not necessarily have to be NICEIC registered.

So will there be major changes for us?
_____________________________________________________________

So how can you not grasp that alexnic works in Scotland, and is describing the regulatory framework that applies there, and is wondering if/how it might change?


2) You then replied, saying you know nothing about Scotland, and proceeded to describe what is proposed in Part P for England & Wales. But that didn't bother me - I didn't get upset at all by that post.


3) Then, immediately after another post from alexnic saying he was curious to know about the "implementation of Part P in Scotland", I posted, quoting sections of the Part P proposals which said that the Scottish Building Regs already cover electrical installations and that one of the benefits of Part P would be to bring the English regulations into line with the Scottish ones.
And I wrote

"Which seems to imply that things aren't changing for you guys, and what's proposed for us is the same, or almost, as your current regulatory framework."

How hard is it to grasp that I am addressing a "you" who is in Scotland?

My actual question in the post was

"If you don't have to be a member of NICEIC, who decides if you are 'competent'?"

How hard is it to grasp that I'm still talking to the same Scottish you as I was in the previous sentence?


4) You, GwaiLo, then quote my plainly-addressed-to-someone-in-Scotland question, and say

"Read my previous post. the answer is there".

Quite why you thought that the answer to a question addressed to a person in Scotland, asking about how something worked in Scotland, would be found in a post which began "I have no idea about Scotland" and which then went on to explain some proposed rules which will not apply to Scotland, beats me.

And then you had the gall to explain the English/Welsh situation again, and ask me if I now understood.


5) And now you say I should read your posts in full before getting my knickers in a twist. Well - my knickers were in a twist precisely because I did read your posts in full.

I did see that they had no information about how things operate in Scotland.

I did see that you said you knew nothing about Scotland.

I did see that because YOU didn't read MY post in full YOU didn't understand what I was asking, and I did see that you referred me back to a post which didn't answer my question about Scotland.

I did see that you explained how work didn't have to be done by a competent person, just certified by one, as if that was an answer to the question

"if a Scottish DIY-er does his own electrical work, how does he get it certified?"

And I did see your condescending "Do you understand now?"


So before you next criticise someone for not reading your posts in full, take heed of your own advice on that score.

 

[GwaiLo]

ban all sheds,
Ah, well I did say that I am always happy to admit a mistake, it on reflection I can see how "Do you understand now?" might appear condescending and I could have phrased it better. However, I promise you that it was not intended to be condescending. It really would have been better had I said "Is my explanation clear now". I am happy to apologise for any offence caused in that respect.

As for whether I addressed your question. I think I did. You post refferred to matters in both England and Wales and in Scotland.

I don't come here for abuse. So if that it what you are about I shouldn't bother, because I shall simply ignore it.

So far as I am concerned that concludes this discussion, you can either accept my apology and that perhaps you also didn't post as clearly as you could have or you don't. It is of no consequence to me which you choose.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

GwaiLo I'm sorry. I really must make more efforts to abandon my truly bizarre and confusing practice of addressing someone and asking them direct questions about what they have said in the hope that a third party would answer a different question.


Now that I have carefully re-read my post, it has dawned on me with amazing clarity that when someone describing the regime in Scotland said

"We do have to be classed as 'competant' to do so but not necessarily have to be NICEIC registered"

and I said

"If you don't have to be a member of NICEIC, who decides if you are 'competent'?"

that of course that didn't mean I was asking him about how it worked in Scotland, I was asking you about how it is proposed to work in England and Wales. Why have I only just realised that?

Thank heavens you were on the ball and were able to successfully intercept my question and correct it, otherwise who knows what mess would have resulted!

If you felt I was abusing you I abase myself. I am mortified at the thought that I could abuse someone who knows far better than I that I had written the wrong question.

 

[GwaiLo]

ban all sheds,

Of course all that assumes that your post was addressed to alexnic.

However it followed on from mine and, not being psychic, and you not mentioning that it was addressed to him, I didn't assume that it was.

There really isn't anything I can add. I think I have explained quite properly why I posted what I did now. I have also apologised for any offence I may have inadvertantly caused.

I have offered an olive branch. I am of the opinion that mature adults should be able to disagree without being petty and personal. It would be wonderful to find that you shared that view.

If you don't then I hope you won't be offended if I confine my discussions to others.

Gung Hey Fat Choy

 

[ban-all-sheds]

ban all sheds,

Of course all that assumes that your post was addressed to alexnic.

However it followed on from mine and, not being psychic, and you not mentioning that it was addressed to him, I didn't assume that it was.

There really isn't anything I can add. I think I have explained quite properly why I posted what I did now. I have also apologised for any offence I may have inadvertantly caused.

I have offered an olive branch. I am of the opinion that mature adults should be able to disagree without being petty and personal. It would be wonderful to find that you shared that view.

Oh I do, GwaiLo, I do.

And I will take note of your signature first thing in the morning, and seek professional advice about my eyes, for I keep seeing things that aren't there. For example, (and I know this must sound pretty incredible), when I look back at the sequence of posts I keep thinking that I can see one from alexnic immediately before mine!