radial circuit

[riveralt]

i didn't think it was that big a deal re regs etc. the only reg. i'm aware of is the one about the cooker switch must be accessible.

Cooker switch must be minimum of 300mm from the hob's edge and 300mm from edge of sink. No sockets or accessories above the hob - switches to be minimum of 150mm above worktop.....to name but a few.

You might be better off buying a diy domestic electrical handbook or the electricians guide to the building regs to get an idea of some of the complexities of the building regs and BS7671.

Then make a decision as to whether you feel confident to diy or get someone in to do it for you.

 

[dingbat]

...as for the comment about i don't know what i'm doing, well why would anyone be asking for advice on a forum if they knew what they were doing. if you are implying that i don't know what i'm doing in general well thats just insulting "dingbat".

Why would I comment on what you know generally?

But you genuinely have no clue about electrics.

Sadly, this is an extremely common deficiency and electrical safety always takes a back seat to the shiny new bling. Every man and his dog has a go at the sparking without the first idea what they are doing, on the basis that if it seems to work it must be okay. It isn't, but without headline-grabbing, deadly explosions that situation is unlikely to change.

You are far from being the first to be advised to get in an electrician.

 

[dingbat]

i didn't think it was that big a deal re regs etc. the only reg. i'm aware of is the one about the cooker switch must be accessible.

Cooker switch must be minimum of 300mm from the hob's edge and 300mm from edge of sink. No sockets or accessories above the hob - switches to be minimum of 150mm above worktop.....to name but a few.

And not one single one of those oft-quoted requirements is even a regulation! (Wiring, Building, or otherwise)

The only parts of BS 7671 that will apply here are Parts 1, 3, 4, 5 & 6, although you may also need to consult Part 2 and Appendices, 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 12 & 15.

 

[riveralt]

i didn't think it was that big a deal re regs etc. the only reg. i'm aware of is the one about the cooker switch must be accessible.

Cooker switch must be minimum of 300mm from the hob's edge and 300mm from edge of sink. No sockets or accessories above the hob - switches to be minimum of 150mm above worktop.....to name but a few.

And not one single one of those oft-quoted requirements is even a regulation! (Wiring, Building, or otherwise)

The only parts of BS 7671 that will apply here are Parts 1, 3, 4, 5 & 6, although you may also need to consult Part 2 and Appendices, 1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 12 & 15.

Well I never new that!

So I can ignore all of the above and any other guidance given in the electricians guide to the building regulations when designing and installing electrical installations in special locations such as kitchens.

So I can place the cooker socket above the hob; sockets adjacent to the worktop etc - maybe there is no regulation that states this, but commonsence says it and in my mind that is what the electricians guide to the building regs is all about.

By the way, I have searched high and low but cannot find your reference to the fact that the OP's dwelling should have had two rewires by now, can you point me in the right direction or is that another oft quoted requirement that isn't a regulation..........

or perhaps it too is just commonsense!

 

[dingbat]

Well I never new that!

So I can ignore all of the above and any other guidance given in the electricians guide to the building regulations when designing and installing electrical installations in special locations such as kitchens.

You would be very ill-advised to do that, especially as others (such as building control officers) may well refer to the same book. (A kitchen is not a special location, by the way.)

So I can place the cooker socket above the hob; sockets adjacent to the worktop etc - maybe there is no regulation that states this, but commonsence[sic] says it and in my mind that is what the electricians guide to the building regs is all about.

It is indeed a guide. It shows you how you are likely to comply with applicable regulations, both statutory and non-statutory, but does not actually spell out regulations themselves, which is rather different.

By the way, I have searched high and low but cannot find your reference to the fact that the OP's dwelling should have had two rewires by now, can you point me in the right direction or is that another oft quoted requirement that isn't a regulation..........

Correct. There is no such regulation, but then again I never said it was a regulation. However, a 1950s dwelling would have had rubber insulation, which was given a maximum working life of 25 years by the manufacturers; a standard interval which is still oft-quoted and makes a lot of sense (just as your suggestions do) given the change in utilisation over that sort of period.

or perhaps it too is just commonsense!

You seem to have got yourself a bit upset about this. There's no need, it certainly wasn't personal. But you have to be careful of stating that regulations exist which do not - far too many professionals fall into that trap and as a result follow 'advice' while failing to observe actual requirements.

In any case, my comments were not designed to criticise your good guidance, rather to address the OP's statement: "i didn't think it was that big a deal re regs etc. the only reg. i'm aware of is the one about the cooker switch must be accessible."

 

[riveralt]

Good Morning dingbat - no not upset

I too was pointing out to the OP that there are many things to consider when doing any work in the kitchen.

I feel that the more information (guidance) that DIYers are given the better they are able to decide whether they have the neccessary skills to complete the task themselves or pass it on to someone else. Those guidance notes for kitchens also leave a more professional finish to the project.

As a member of a competent persons scheme, I do not need to involve building control in the electrical work I do, but I do speak to them about the standards they expect. Whether regulation or guidance the majority refer to the notes in electricians guide to BR.

In so far as how often rewires should take place I treat every case on its merits. A few months ago, I rewired a house built in 1954. I did a Periodic Inspection Report first and it past all tests - the rewire went ahead because there was only one single gang socket in each room (and a load of extension cables).

 

[ban-all-sheds]

i'm thinking in light of what you've said that i should use the cooker connection for the hob alone and create a separate circuit for the other three appliances;

We'll come back to that.

directly beneath this is a hole out of which comes a cable that connects one plug socket about 1m away to the left as you look at it.

And the size of those cables, on a 30A fuse, is...?

They don't look big enough to me.

maybe the easiest thing to do is nip these three wires. live neutral and earth and connect them to a junction box and run the cable for the circuit from that.

That's not a separate circuit.

You said you were going to create a separate circuit.

the wires that protrude from the hole are connected to the ring main at the fuse box which is on a 30 amp fuse.

FFS.

You must not have 2.5mm² on a 30A fuse supplying more than one socket.

But you know that, or you should, because I told you that here: //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1775253#1775253

And also because you originally posted in this topic: //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=28705

There's no point you asking questions, and no point people answering them, because you just aren't interested in paying attention to anything which doesn't say, "yes - go ahead and create a dangerous lash-up", are you.

all i have to hand is a connection box which is rated 20amps.

And is 20 ≥ 30, or less?

are you saying no-one can do diy electrical work at all, not even putting in some extra plugholes, without these inspections and fees applying ? i've not seen that on any other threads i've read.

Really?

Let's see...

//search.diynot.com/forum_sear...since=any&author=&search=Search+Forum&stype=0 - 19,602 results.

//search.diynot.com/forum_sear...since=any&author=&search=Search+Forum&stype=0 - 6,557 results.

//search.diynot.com/forum_sear...since=any&author=&search=Search+Forum&stype=0 - 2,073 results.


More selective ignoring of things you don't want to hear?

 

[fairbrother89]

the first link to my so called earlier posts leads straight back to this thread.
the second link leads to a thread i have never posted on. though i did read it and weirdly intended to post my original question on it. but unless you are seeing something different to me my post appears only on this thread.

but now i feel we are getting somewhere. as you will have observed those wires coming out of the hole which are indeed on the same 30 amp fuse at the box as the rest of what is described in the box as "ring main" only serves the one socket. see it,...off to the left as you look.

those wires could therefore well be 2.5mm and therefore taking further sockets of that by extending it with 4mm cable sounds inadvisable if i've understood anything at all or illegal. so thanks i've finally got an answer that has saved me from doing something dangerous.

edit; i've just measured them they are 4mm. obviously old style as they are not in any kind of shroud but defo' 4mm. so in theory i could extend it with a few more sockets but as its in a kitchen i would not technically be on terra firma unless i got an official "competant person" to do it. as opposed to frank spencer.

 

[dingbat]

In so far as how often rewires should take place I treat every case on its merits.

And so you should.

A few months ago, I rewired a house built in 1954. I did a Periodic Inspection Report first and it past all tests - the rewire went ahead because there was only one single gang socket in each room (and a load of extension cables).

BASEC - a body worth listening to - deem VIR cable to be absolutely beyond its safe life and warranting a rewire asap.

I once carried out a PIR on a premises where fire damage had been concealed behind a locked door. All tests were absolutely fine, but when I managed to gain access to the locked door I discovered no fewer than four sets of circuit cable burned through to the copper and accessible to touch. The inspection is always more valuable than test results.

 

[fairbrother89]

as you were. just measured them again and compared them to my 2.5 cable they seem a smidgin thicker but closer to the 2.5 that i thought so probably thats what they are, 2.5. so that being the case the only way to extra sockets in that corner of the kitchen is to get it rewired from the fusebox with 4mm cable.
i am wondering though what thickness the cable is thats serving the cooker swich box that also has a socket on it as perhaps an extension could be taken off that.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

the first link to my so called earlier posts leads straight back to this thread.

Yes - to the post I made 2 weeks ago which gave you the answer you now say you've "finally" got.

the second link leads to a thread i have never posted on. though i did read it and weirdly intended to post my original question on it.

Q: How do you think I know you read it?

a) I am psychic

b) You did actually post on there but as it was a hijack it got moved by a Mod to become this topic, which I know because it happened while I was replying there.

So you've known the the answer which you now say you've "finally" got since you read that thread at least 2 weeks ago.

 

[fairbrother89]

sorry i don't what answer you're talking about.

but listen. the cables feeding the cooker switch and related socket are fat bastards, look like 5mm to me but must be 4mm ? unless old style cabling was in imperial measurements. but a simple solution has just occured to me till i can afford the rewiring work. a four plug extension lead off that socket.

assuming i'm alright plugging the oven into that using an ordinary 13amp plug that is ?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

sorry i don't what answer you're talking about.

This one:

those wires could therefore well be 2.5mm and therefore taking further sockets of that by extending it with 4mm cable sounds inadvisable if i've understood anything at all or illegal. so thanks i've finally got an answer that has saved me from doing something dangerous.

About having a 30A radial using 2.5mm² cable.

The one you say you have finally got.

The same one that you got when you read that other topic at least 2 weeks ago, as that information was in it.

The same one that you got from ColJack 2 weeks ago.

The same one that you got from me 2 weeks ago.

As I said there's no point you asking questions and no point people answering them because you either cannot or will not read the answers.

I'm dropping out of this topic now - not going to waste any more of my time on a clown like you, and as I go I'll give you one last piece of advice, and even though I say so myself it's the best you have so far received, or will ever receive.


Get an electrician - this is all beyond you.

 

[riveralt]

In so far as how often rewires should take place I treat every case on its merits.

And so you should.

A few months ago, I rewired a house built in 1954. I did a Periodic Inspection Report first and it past all tests - the rewire went ahead because there was only one single gang socket in each room (and a load of extension cables).

BASEC - a body worth listening to - deem VIR cable to be absolutely beyond its safe life and warranting a rewire asap.

I don't know where VIR cable came from I don't remember mentioning that. This house had the old single core (grey outer red/black) inner cable - probably rewired in the mid 60's.

Visual was okay as well as testing - point here it is not always necessary to incur expensive upgrades if the current equipment is satisfactory.

 

[fairbrother89]

check the thread again ban all sheds that wasn't me you and col jack replied to.

i've just checked my other sockets and they are all connected with 2.5mm cabling through ducting off a 30amp fuse. 12 sockets in all throughout the flat. btw although i said it was 50's wiring i'm assuming now the flat must have been rewired at least once since it was built so probably a 70's job.