When I was a kid I prayed for a bike for Christmas, I didn't get one.
So I went out and nicked one and prayed for forgiveness.
Andy
So I went out and nicked one and prayed for forgiveness.
Andy
Religion and contradiction
- Thread starter festive
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Hello Festive,
A child's mind is a blank canvas, and so some form of 'indoctrination' is required to at least occupy some of that vacuum, and this extends beyond just the realm of theology - it can include behaviour, bias, mannerisms, cuisine, expression and so on.
So with that in mind, indoctrination is far more nuanced than mere black and white, and it's simplification does no one any real favours.
As for religious indoctrination, there is a myth amongst many people of abelief, namely that most religious folk are non-critical - that's not entirely true. There is a well documented phenomena that occurs within young adults whereby they go through a phase of uncertainty, introspection, and analysis of existing ideals which may or may not change their perception of how they view the world - this usually occurs around the late teens/early 20s.
As for the multiplicity of religious doctrines, it's a question for the historian, not the scientist. There are many books that discuss this matter, and some theologies do dwell into this particular issue.
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EddieM
Conundrum. You die. Enter a room with two doors one is the entrance to hell one is the entrance to heaven. 2 "angels" guard each door you must pick only one and only have one question to ask to one angel. The first Angel can only speak the truth, the other can only speak lies. What question do you ask?
'If I ask the other angel will he tell me the truth?'
Andy
Andy
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EddieM
In one.. well played sir.. go for the no!
How does that determine which door is which?
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EddieM
Ok, the question in full is "if I ask the other Angel is this the door to heaven, will he/she/it say yes or no" then if the answer is yes choose the other door, if no.. go through.
Ah, right. That's different.
D
Doggit
Not so Eddie I'm afraid. Your answer is based on the assumption that you've asked the lying angel, and in having received a lie, you do the opposite. But if you asked the same question of the truthful angel, and did the opposite, then you'd end up in hell. This conundrum comes from an old Cary Grant movie where he postulates that there are two tibes of indians, the lying balck feet, and the truthfull white foot tribe. If you asked the white foot tribe a question, you'd get the truth, but if you asked the lying blackfoot tribe the same question, how would you know if you were being told the truth, or a lie. When asked how you tell the difference, he replied that you couldn't, but when pressed that there must be an way of getting at the truth, he then said it was simple; you looked at the bottom of their feet - which I don't think you can do with your angels.
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EddieM
Nope. If I asked the lying one does the other guys door lead to heaven he would have to say no (if indeed it did lead to heaven). If he said yes, then it would lead to hell. Similarly if I asked the truthful one the same question, if the door the other guy was guarding lead to heaven he would say no, if it leads to hell he'd say yes. Make sense?
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Doggit
Whilst a childs mind is a blank canvas, indoctrination isn't actually required, but it is a natural part of growing. Unfortunately, most people don't realise that they have personality traits and beleifs that others find questionable, yet they pass these traits on to their children as part of the normal growing and "paterning" behaviour. Children go through a questioning phase, not because they are showing inteligence, but through a rebelious nature that wants to assert their own individuality. Unfortunately, patterning tends to reassert itself, unless you can put a more reasonable suggestion in it's place.
Of course it does, but only on the assumption that the angel "has" to lie. On that basis, youre logic is unassailable. If he decides not to lie, then you have no way of knowing if he's the liar, or being a devious lying bastard that's trying to trip you up.
But I'll happily accept you're premise as being a good one.
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EddieM
Yes, indeed the premise is he/it *must* lie and t'other *must* tell the truth otherwise you're up the creek without a paddle.
D
Doggit
Which was the point Cary Grant was trying to make; you couldn't know who was lying and who was telling the truth. And in many ways, if you could solve the problem of which door to choose so easily, then it's not much of a problem.
Indoctrination in the broad sense is a vital aspect of childhood - it allows the child to create a framework, and thus imitate, which will facilitate the child's ability to act and interact like a human. Put a baby in a cage with monkeys for 10 years and observe the outcome.
A child will eventually grow up to re-assess the worldview projected onto him by his parents. This is a well observed phenomena in developmental psychology and is usually part of the maturing process. It also extends well beyond the teenager years.
It has little to do with intelligence per se, but more of a cognitive 'opening', the realisation that there is more to the world - in other words, a novel ability to think abstractly/philosophically, which is refined over the years. Some cases may be due to rebellion but I hope you can appreciate that motives are far more varied, and besides, most adolescents will 'out grow' such phases anyway.
If children weren't re-assessing paternal/maternal conditioning, we wouldn't be experiencing this wave of new-age atheism for example, or the resurgence of Islam, which is primarily being lead by and revived amongst younger people and is mainly related to identity and metaphysics, as opposed to rebellion.
Is the questionability of certain ideals/traits a sufficient argument considering how subjective and polemical many ideals are ? And is it as problematic if a child will eventually grow up to re-assess that perspective anyway ? Although I should mention the scope of these questions is limited to ideas only and not behavior. Child abuse for instance has very real effects on children in their later years.
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