Required Qualifications

[JP]

I recently turned 30 and wish to change my career. Having been a pretty keen DIYer for many years I wish to become qualified to perform domestic electrical installations. I recently met a chap that has been studying for 2 years in his spare time and will soon be qualified. Unfortunately I'm no longer in contact with this guy.

If anybody knows please can you give me some advise on what exactly is required to become qualified (so I can get insurance)(so I'm protected if someone sues me for blowing up their house).

Thanks in advance
JP

 

[Big_Spark]

JP, there are various ways to do this, but considering your age I believe the best way for you to do this is the following.

Go to your local College and enrol on a course called

City and Guilds 2360 part 1 Electrical Installation

The next intact will not be, I am afraid, until September, but if you want to be a spark then you need to start with the right course.

In the meantime I would suggest you contact Contractors near to you to see if they would be prepared to take you on as an Electrician's Mate.

The pay will be poor compared to that of a spark, I have no idea what your earning now, but the pay will vary from location to location, and is likely to be anything from £5.50 to £7.50 per hour.

This will get you working with Sparks, you will start to learn the practical side of the job to a certain degree, remember you will not be an apprentice so don't expect the Sparks to teach you anything, but if they are a good crew they will.

If your lucky the company may sponsor you by paying you when you are at College doing the part 1, some do, some don't.

When you have completed Part, assuming you pass, you then need to do part 2, but you will learn all about that at college.


One thing you might like to do, to make you a more attractive proposition for an employer, and to get you more money is to look into doing the City and Guilds 2391 Inspection and Testing Course

You do not need to be a spark already to do this course, but you will need to be smart and possess common sense and organisation.

There are many organisations that do the 2391 as a stand-alone course, and you will not need to wait till September to do it.

Further, once you have the 2391, you can get Insurance, legally and legitimately, and then advertise as a Tester and Inspector for the community you live in. This will be a nice source of income from Lettings agents, Building Management cmpy's etc.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This has been asked before.

Do a search for variations of the word "qualifications", and also "part P", 2381, 2391, C&G etc.

More than 1 pro sparky has posted the list of qualifications that you need, and it'll be a lot easier for one of them to repost than it would for me to look for it, but you are welcome to try.

Have you formed an idea of how long it will take you (hint, it will probably be more than 2 years), and how you will support yourself (hint - it is probably not just part time)?

Also, before making any drastic career moves I would suggest waiting until we see what competency schemes make it into the final version of Part P in case it completely prevents any new self-employed electricians from starting up in business. Unless your goal is to work as an employee for an electrical contracting company? I didn't read that into your post, though...

 

[JP]

My intention is to start a domestic electrical contractor business. I may not go through the training to become qualified, I may just buy a business or employ staff and start from scratch.

Anyone have any opinions about how unrealistic / mad / ambitious I might be ?

Does anybody know the current (pardon the pun) split between self employed and amployee sparks ?

Any views on this would be more than welcome.

JP

 

[Big_Spark]

My intention is to start a domestic electrical contractor business. I may not go through the training to become qualified, I may just buy a business or employ staff and start from scratch.

Anyone have any opinions about how unrealistic / mad / ambitious I might be ?

Does anybody know the current (pardon the pun) split between self employed and amployee sparks ?

Any views on this would be more than welcome.

JP

Worst idea possible. You do not have the skills or experience to the job properly. Even if you bought an established electrical contractor, which would be so expensive if you had that sort of money you wouldn't be asking this question, you do not possess the knowledge or experience to run it effectively.

I don't mean this to knock your abilities, but there is a lot to this game at the professional level that DIY will never teach you.

Further, you would never get insured as you are not qualified, your compnay would never get accreditation in the ECA, NICEIC or one of the new bodies being established under Part P which will come into force next January.

When you mean split, do you mean wage difference, ratio of one to the other nationally or what?

It varies from industry to industry, contracting has the highest self-employed, maintenance the lowest, but it is not a hard and fast rule.

By all means ask the questions.

 

[Albert]

I recently turned 30 and wish to change my career. Having been a pretty keen DIYer for many years I wish to become qualified to perform domestic electrical installations. JP

Very interesting, I am a qualified engineer in general mechanics, just turned 50, had to change direction, gues what... yes I will finish my last exam on mid. June, the course is 2360. I am doing it once a week all day and my next course is 2391.
All this to tell you, that it is never late, think about it carefully, and when you have made your discission go for it. don't worry about the insurance you will need it and better have it but it is the easyest part of the story.

Albert

 

[dingbat]

Go for it. I did the same about six months ago and I'm at the same stage as Albert. FWL likes to p*ss on people's chips a bit, but just because he's extremely knowledgeable it doesn't mean to say that anybody of merely reasonable intelligence can't do the job and do it well. He's right that you need the knowledge and you should take some qualifications, but it's certainly not beyond anybody who's determined enough.

If the students in my 2360 Part 2 class are anything to go by (aged between eighteen and thirty-five) electricians are not particularly special. If the standard of some work I have encountered is anything to go by neither are some allegedly approved contractors. I make a living by doing a good job and half my work now comes from referrals.

As long as the work you do meets the regs, insurance is not a problem and there is no shame in telling a customer that a job is beyond your scope. Tackle what you are competent to do well now, keep learning and go for more tricky jobs when you are ready.

And as for NICEIC, I will soon be applying to join the ranks and from preliminary enquiries I have been given every indication that this application will be successful. Have a look at what you need here: here

(I'm 46, by the way)

 

[JP]

They were 3 excellent responses, exactly what I'm looking for.

Firstly a big thank you to Albert and Dingbat for positive thinking, brilliant.

I'd just like to ask everyone one or two questions on the points made by FWL.

When I suggested the possibility of buying an already established business I wasn't thinking I could just buy the business, expect the respect from my new "employee Electricians" and be able to run the business effectively, I agree this wouldn't be realistic.

I could however (if I thought it was a worthwhile investment) employ a "Manager" qualified, respected etc. to do the day to day running of the business.

FWL - you said "you would never get insured as you are not qualified, your company would never get accreditation in the ECA, NICEIC or one of the new bodies being established under Part P which will come into force next January"

Could accreditation be achieved by an or some employee(s) of the business being qualified ?

Whether I decide to attempt to become qualified would not be a business decision but a personal one, it fascinates me.

In my questions I was trying to establish a few things about the industry:-

What percentage of domestic electrical contractors are self employed and what percentage are employees of a business ?

Am I completely off the mark and in actual fact contractors are rarely "Domestic only" but have a mix of domestic and commercial work ?

Why are Electricians generally self employed ? Is this an historic thing or does being an "employee" not suit the mindset of many Electricians ?

Thank you for all your viewpoints. The more the better.

JP

 

[Big_Spark]

JP, dingbat may accuse me of p*ss*ng on people chips, but he's talking ****.

If you want to do this, go for it, when I am being "negative" to your comments earlier it is not because I do not think you can do it or shouldn't do it, but because I would want to see you do it right.

I have been in this game for 21 years, so I do know what I am talking about, my technical knowledge means ****, but KNOWING the industry makes a MASSIVE difference if you want to run a business successfully.

Age does not make you better at this, sorry Guys but it is true, EXPERIENCE is the Key in the construction game. A lot of your success will come from being able to price jobs correctly, that can only come from experience, they do not teach you it at college.

Can you, dingbat, JP or Albert, honestly say you can go to a job (small) and instantly know approximately how much it will cost? How long it will take?. In this game you make your money on fine margins, 3 to 6%, and you cannot afford to make mistakes, they put you out of business.

So dingbat, you can accuse me of many things, but do not accuse me of p*ss*ng on someone parade without very good cause. If you start a company and get it wrong it can cost you your home, that is not a laughing matter.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And as for NICEIC, I will soon be applying to join the ranks and from preliminary enquiries I have been given every indication that this application will be successful. Have a look at what you need here: here

Looks like you have a very tight window. I note that "Myth 5" says

Myth 5 - You need to have been trading for years and show lots of examples of work

The current rules stipulate that contractors must have been working for one year. However, the NICEIC are considering a rule change, effective from April 03, that contractors need to have been trading for 6 months to be eligible to apply.

Electrical contractors need to show Area Engineers a minimum of 5 jobs, typically:

One job in progress

One minor works - e.g. extra sockets on an existing circuit

Three completed and fully certificated jobs, ideally at different locations and using different wiring methods

The last I heard on Part P was that it will kick in in Jan '05. Whether NICEIC do reduce their trading period to 6 months or not, they have still not addressed the Catch-22 that to enrol with NICEIC you have to show them certified work but once Part P is in force you cannot do certified work until you are enrolled with them.

At the moment this does not apply, you can issue certificates (or will be able to once you've got 2381/2391), so you've got until the end of the year to get the minimum jobs under your belt.

 

[dingbat]

JP, dingbat may accuse me of p*ss*ng on people chips, but he's talking ****.

Er, excuse me, but your heavy-handed manner in response to almost every post does very little to endear you as a mentor. You almost always start out by telling somebody what they can't do, making assumptions about their lack of expertise. Knowledgeable you undoubtedly are; wise, perhaps less so.

Can you, dingbat, JP or Albert, honestly say you can go to a job (small) and instantly know approximately how much it will cost? How long it will take?. In this game you make your money on fine margins, 3 to 6%, and you cannot afford to make mistakes, they put you out of business.

Yup. That's how I make my living. I'm a one man band, so your margins simply don't apply to me (or Albert, or JP for that matter) because I have few overheads. As I win almost every job I quote for and make high margins (60-70% on a per job basis) the issue for me is not getting the price right, it's getting the calls in the first place. An increasing proportion of my work is by referral, so I must be doing something right.

Of course I don't make a mint. Of course I couldn't do your job. I have no interest in becoming a mogul; I do this so that my liveliehood is in my hands and I suspect that this is also a motive for others.

As for the age thing, you're right. Age does not itself impart experience, but it does inform you of human nature. I work for people who trust me in their homes - I think my grey hairs help.

You have much of value to share, FWL, but your sensitive and prickly arrogance doesn't exactly endear you to your audience. Rather than get into an argument about it though, let's see if we can both be grown up enough to leave it at that.

 

[dingbat]

The last I heard on Part P was that it will kick in in Jan '05. Whether NICEIC do reduce their trading period to 6 months or not, they have still not addressed the Catch-22 that to enrol with NICEIC you have to show them certified work but once Part P is in force you cannot do certified work until you are enrolled with them.

Ban, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. What you won't be able to do is 'self-certify' that your work complies with building regulations for building control purposes. But anybody with the necessary skills, knowledge and experience can issue certification for work done. As I understand it - I know a spark who is going through the process at the moment - whilst NICEIC want to see you certifying everything, they are keen to help you build up to that happy state.

 

[Big_Spark]

JP, dingbat may accuse me of p*ss*ng on people chips, but he's talking ****.

Er, excuse me, but your heavy-handed manner in response to almost every post does very little to endear you as a mentor. You almost always start out by telling somebody what they can't do, making assumptions about their lack of expertise. Knowledgeable you undoubtedly are; wise, perhaps less so.

Heavy handed? Oh well, and you call me sensitive I am not here to be anyone mentor. Regarding assumptions, very often the manner of a post and the question allows anyone to make an informed jugdement call as to a persons knowledge and ability, I am not alone in this. If a person cannot do something, because it is dangerous or illegal or obviously beyond their abilities, I will tell them. I have never believed in pussy footing about, be straight and honest with people, they choose to ignore me then that is up to them.

Yup. That's how I make my living. I'm a one man band, so your margins simply don't apply to me (or Albert, or JP for that matter) because I have few overheads. As I win almost every job I quote for and make high margins (60-70% on a per job basis) the issue for me is not getting the price right, it's getting the calls in the first place. An increasing proportion of my work is by referral, so I must be doing something right.

Glad to know your making a living, but you of all people must understand the point I was making, I was wrong in your case, I apologise, however you must admit the skill of being able to assess a small job as you look at it di not come overnight. It takes several years to hone that skill, and sometimes costly mistakes along the way. Without very good knowledge of the job, it is impossible to price correctly, and this is something that JP certainly and maybe to a lesser degree Albert need to address if they are to start their own companies and be a success.

Of course I don't make a mint. Of course I couldn't do your job. I have no interest in becoming a mogul; I do this so that my liveliehood is in my hands and I suspect that this is also a motive for others.

Who says that i) I make a mint, and ii) I want to be a mogul? Neither of these comments fit me, I want enough money so I do not have any financial worries and can concentrate on what I want to do, that day isn't here yet. As for mogul, please I have no more desire to be one of those than I do to be a lapdancer. As fo you not being able to do my job, in terms of FWL and the other contractor, you may be able too, if you are a qualified spark and your used to the mundane paperwork and administration it entails, then 80% of my job you probably could do. The third company I agree, you could not do that job, but as it is only marginally electrical that is no surprise.

As for the age thing, you're right. Age does not itself impart experience, but it does inform you of human nature. I work for people who trust me in their homes - I think my grey hairs help.

I agree, I honestly believe we are all more trusting of the older generation, and life experience is a major factor in dealing with people. I am proud to say that within FWL and CEL no-one has ever questioned the honesty of our engineers...to me that would be a personal disaster.

You have much of value to share, FWL, but your sensitive and prickly arrogance doesn't exactly endear you to your audience. Rather than get into an argument about it though, let's see if we can both be grown up enough to leave it at that.

I've been accused fo worse..I wouldn't say I was arrogant, but then I do not see me as others do, maybe I do come across that way..I hope not always..but we should all remember it is difficult to impossible to read any inflection into a persons post, they are cold words, and whilst we all need to be aware of what we write, we also all need to be aware that how we choose to read those words may not be how they were intended to be read.

 

[Albert]

I think, (from the limited experience I have with this site), that what makes it great is the frank and honest replys. If FWL_Engineer, would not do it his way it would be wrong, yes he could be a bit less hard, but considering the amount of info. he puts in, we just learn to ignore the negative part and take the positive which is much greater, especially when we know that it is all in good intention...
In the same way JP & dingbat, if you would not sent a line telling off FWL_Engineer, something will be missing here and it will become a very boring place.
To answer your question FWL_Engineer, With all my experience and knowledge in other fields (you learn something working as an engineer for 30 years, as trouble shooter), I feel confident in dealing with a customer but as new in this market I would be very careful, I would not reject any job (as I don't have any, I can't test this), but I would do research to get all the data I need to deal with it, and when I am sure that I know the task than I will decide, there is always something new that it is the first time for you, if you don't take it you will never progress, I never gamble so if think it is too 'heavy' for me I will definitely say no.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The last I heard on Part P was that it will kick in in Jan '05. Whether NICEIC do reduce their trading period to 6 months or not, they have still not addressed the Catch-22 that to enrol with NICEIC you have to show them certified work but once Part P is in force you cannot do certified work until you are enrolled with them.

Ban, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. What you won't be able to do is 'self-certify' that your work complies with building regulations for building control purposes. But anybody with the necessary skills, knowledge and experience can issue certification for work done. As I understand it - I know a spark who is going through the process at the moment - whilst NICEIC want to see you certifying everything, they are keen to help you build up to that happy state.

Well, of course we must wait and see what the actual form of Part P is when finally implemented, but at the moment I believe that the regime proposed is that work must be either:

1) Done by someone who can self certify

2) Notified to Building Control before started, and inspected and tested by them.

I don't believe that there will be an option of non-competent people doing non-notified work and then getting somebody else to test & inspect it. But we shall see - I hope for everyone's sake that there remains a route for new sole trader businesses to start and flourish, or the economy is doomed.