Scantronic ION-40 - installation question

[davidrw]

Hi, I will be installing a Scantronic ION-40 to replace my 9800.

The current box sits on a wall & the alarm wires are buried in the plaster and come up in the box.

Also behind the box (in the plaster) is a mains cable that feeds some sockets and the fused spur for the box. The cable comes down vertically behind the box.

The instruction manual for the new alarm warns against having a vertical electric wire near the alarm - has anyone experienced problems with this in the past; if so I either need to extend all of the alarm wires or dig the power out of the wall and move that !!.

 

[josh451]

It'll be fine.

 

[davidrw]

It'll be fine.

Thanks Josh that helps me calm my worries !!

Any other views ?

I realise that I will need to test for induced voltage, my current box has something strange (1J160) that may be for that, however I guess that there could be wireless interference as well in the new one with the electric wires running in the plaster behind the aerial !!

Thanks

David

 

[alumni]

Just make sure you don't put the screws for your new box through the hidden cables - it does happen.

 

[chaindaisy]

Hi David,

Like Josh, I have had no other alternative on occasion other than to run alarm cable beside mains, and whilst it is recommended that alarm cable should be 30 centimetres away from mains, I have rarely had any problems, although I don't make a habit of it. However, it is not advisable, as Josh will agree, in this case, if you intend mounting the panel in that location. The Ion 40 is a hybrid scantronic which accepts wired remote keypads. There is a chance that were you to just use this location for a remote keypad you may not encounter any problems, but I couldn't guarantee it. On the other hand, I couldn't guarantee that you shall definitely have problems were you to mount the panel at this location.

Personally, I would prefer to mount any wireless receiver away from a large concentration of mains electrical cable, but there again, there is always a fused spur next to a completely wireless system so we may be worrying about nothing in particular.

You are wise testing for induced voltage, I have the correct parameters here, but not in memory, so I would need to look them up.

If I had to suggest anything, it would probably be to mount the panel and just one wireless detector, leave it for a day, if there are no problems then go ahead and connect up the hard wired devices also. It's worth bearing in mind that there are occasions when mains induced voltage (for want of the correct term - try EMI !) can cause more trouble in a hard wired system than in a wireless or hybrid system. The reason I mention this is because when a unknown fault occurs in a hybrid, many installers seem to automatically assume it's a wireless (phantom) fault when in fact it is a hardwired problem.

 

[davidrw]

Thanks for that.

The new panel will in the same place that the previous one was so hopefully will not be too much of an issue with induced voltage (and I believe that it is curable).
I copied the test from the spike supressed spec:-

1. Switch multimeter to 20VAC range
2. Connect test probes across the 12VDC+ to PIRs and mains earth.
3. Reading obtained should not exceed 1.2VDC
4. If high induced AC voltage is measured, fit an ACT 1313 to the control panel (and any PSU) as described
5. Retest with meter to confirm induced AC voltage reading drops to within 0.5VAC

I was more woried about the radio side, however I guess as you say try it and see - I can always move something - however extending all of the alarm wires would be fun !!

 

[chaindaisy]

Hi David,

Good on you for testing induction. This test is supposed to be carried out at each alarm service and in my opinion quite a few installers give it a miss, so it might be worth testing say once a year or thereabouts,

I've been having a think about the situation, and to be honest I am probably over reacting, being too pessimistic. So, on a jollier note, since we are close to Christmas, let's give it a go and worry about it afterward. If it comes down to moving the wires, in all probability they are beneath the floorboards directly above the panel, likewise the keypad, so a few good junctions up there and away you go, but I don't think it will come to that.

Keep me informed, can't wait to hear another success story.

Best Wishes.

 

[bernardgreen]

A voltmeter is un-likely to be fast enough to measure the voltage of a spike, if the reading on the meter is constant then it is reading a continuously induced voltage at 50 Hz and that is not a spike. It is unlikely that a spike suppressor will remove that type of induced voltage if the circuitry of the power unit cannot itself suppress the induced voltage.

The way to measure for any AC voltage inducted from mains onto the DC supply is to measure for AC voltage using capacitor in series with one of the test leads across the positve and negatice of the 12 volt supply. The capacitor is will block the DC and only allow any AC voltage to be measured.

That said if there is significant induced 50 Hz on the 12 volt DC supply then any spikes on the mains are also going to to reach the 12 volt even if they will not register on a meter,

 

[davidrw]

A voltmeter is un-likely to be fast enough to measure the voltage of a spike, if the reading on the meter is constant then it is reading a continuously induced voltage at 50 Hz and that is not a spike. It is unlikely that a spike suppressor will remove that type of induced voltage if the circuitry of the power unit cannot itself suppress the induced voltage.

The way to measure for any AC voltage inducted from mains onto the DC supply is to measure for AC voltage using capacitor in series with one of the test leads across the positve and negatice of the 12 volt supply. The capacitor is will block the DC and only allow any AC voltage to be measured.

That said if there is significant induced 50 Hz on the 12 volt DC supply then any spikes on the mains are also going to to reach the 12 volt even if they will not register on a meter,

Thanks, I will be checking for the induced voltage as I know the alarm wires and mains (as professionaly installed) are too close.
A number of sites seem to recommend the following for testing for and then removing if present induced voltage http://www.alertelectrical.com/prod/306/act-1313-12v-spike-suppressor.

However I wlll test first and then see where I go from there, this is my project over the xmas break.

Best Wishes

David

 

[bernardgreen]

There is nothing to lose by fitting the spike suppressor. But unless it has some very large capacitors it will not make much impression on mains hum.

 

[alumni]

Thanks, I will be checking for the induced voltage as I know the alarm wires and mains (as professionaly installed) are too close.
A number of sites seem to recommend the following for testing for and then removing if present induced voltage http://www.alertelectrical.com/prod/306/act-1313-12v-spike-suppressor.

However I wlll test first and then see where I go from there, this is my project over the xmas break.

Best Wishes

David

Bearing in mind, and i've seen no mention of it, there is no current indication that you are suffering from induced voltage and/or spikes. So probably worrying over nothing.

Can i ask why you say the cables (alarm and mains) are too close to each other??

 

[chaindaisy]

Because every single alarm engineer in the country is aware of the regs that stipulate a distance of at least 30 centimetres. Because a wireless or hybrid system is being installed. Because David is concerned about it and obviously knows what he's talking about and is receiving first class advice from Bernard Green, an electronics expert. Anything else ?

 

[alumni]

Because every single alarm engineer in the country is aware of the regs that stipulate a distance of at least 30 centimetres. Because a wireless or hybrid system is being installed. Because David is concerned about it and obviously knows what he's talking about and is receiving first class advice from Bernard Green, an electronics expert. Anything else ?

Perhaps you should wind your neck in and think carefully about the tripe you spout.

I look forward to your explanation on dado rails.

Followed by where the OP states he is currently suffering from problems.


Then perhaps take your medication for your paranoia.

 

[EightyTwo]

ACT1313 - lovely bit of kit. It sorts out loads of odd tamper/comms/false alarm problems. I always carry a few on the van.

Davidrw, if you don't have the Scany radio test kit and you've already got your i-ON 40 kit, why not lash it up and test it.

Connect up some mains (to a plug top?), the battery and the keypad on a short length of cable. Don't bother with the speaker or the bell yet (but link the bell tamper to 0V). You'll want to disable the panel's tamper switch with a jumper or some tape. Power the whole thing up like it says in the instructions and program in one of your radio door contacts. These have the worst radio performance and are always farthest away from the panel . Then, with the panel in the approximate position (sitting on top of the 9800?), start the radio signal test and take the contact away to the farthest door or window. Trigger the contact (magnet or tamper) and go back to the keypad to check the signal strength. If you get 4 or more, you should be laughing.

We've put a few of these in with cables running up the back - it's not good practice but we've got away with it so far!

 

[davidrw]

Thank you all for your help.

I intend to test out the unit before installation so will follow the advice on the signal test, I only have PIRs to test with as I am keeping the existing wiring on the 3 exit doors.

The existing box had an unidentified gizzmo with a capacitor that connects to both terminals of the aux power plus mains earth so may have some protection.

The reason for concern is that the new manual has 2 cautions.

1) No mains within 1 metre of box
2) Any spur to come in from the sides or below and never put the mains vertically between the 2 aerials at the top (which is approx where my ring main will run).

I will be putting this in over xmas learning as I go

I will be posting another question soon regarding the external sounder connection, however that is for another thread !!

Best Wishes

David