Should UK have sued EU?

[Notch7]

This issue is about the divorce payment!

Gosh really. And in what document would you find the legal requirement or otherwise for a divorce payment

Obviously you havent read it.

I suggest you do, before making yourself look......er whats that word?

 

[Notch7]

what nonsense.

Oh dear JohnD disagrees with an article in the Guardian

Shows how desperate he is to stickup for his buddy George

 

[motorbiking]

Although another interpretation might be that Theresa said "I have a majority, but I need a bigger one. Give me a bigger majority and I will deliver my fantasy Brexit"

And the voters said "No."

So now she has to deliver a soft-soft-hard-soft-ish Brexit - as that is the only one she can get support for. Either way, she lays it out the MPs vote, the lords protest, the MP tell them where to go and its job done. If I recall, it was the matching cardigan party that said they would not leave the EU and while they did better than before, people still said "no".

 

[Yafo]

So now she has to deliver a soft-soft-hard-soft-ish Brexit - as that is the only one she can get support for. Either way, she lays it out the MPs vote, the lords protest, the MP tell them where to go and its job done. If I recall, it was the matching cardigan party that said they would not leave the EU and while they did better than before, people still said "no".

So another referendum, with a little bit more meat on the bones, or leadership contest or a general election are probably the only ways out?

 

[motorbiking]

The only way out of brexit?

EU offer the crappiest of crap deals. Govt table a walk not sign option, someone tables an amendment to cancel article 50. MPs vote it through, cos nobody knows what the people want anymore. EU rub their hands and say sure - welcome back. Job done.

But right now are there enough remainer MPs?

TM doesn’t want brexit. She want to be PM. she’s trying hard to offer a brexit that the majority can accept. I’m rapidly starting to dislike her despite the fact that she’s about the only one for the job

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Gosh really. And in what document would you find the legal requirement or otherwise for a divorce payment

Obviously you havent read it.

I suggest you do, before making yourself look......er whats that word?

****!

In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

The withdrawal has been agreed and it includes a divorce payment. It does not matter if it was not in the Article 50 part of the Lisbon Treaty, nor in the Holy Bible, the common prayer book, Enid Blyton's Famous Five books, nor anywhere else. it has been agreed!
Now if the UK wants an orderly withdrawal it will honour its agreement. Anything else is a disorderly withdrawal.
I do not need to mention the chaos that would ensue in the case of a disorderly withdrawal.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

The only way out of brexit?

EU offer the crappiest of crap deals. Govt table a walk not sign option, someone tables an amendment to cancel article 50. MPs vote it through, cos nobody knows what the people want anymore. EU rub their hands and say sure - welcome back. Job done.

Nonsense!
The EU alone cannot make such a decision. Only the EU Council and the 27 other members can make such a decision, and it has to be unanimous!
Although the Lisbon Treaty does not make allowance for a cancellation of an Article 50 notice, It only makes provision for a delay of the same.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html


It is possible to conclude that once an Article 50 notice has been submitted, that member is then, to all intents and purposes, out of the EU, (from submission of the notice that member state no longer participates in the governing of the EU) with the last day being as at the withdrawal agreement date, or two years after the submission of the notice. In which case an application to rejoin is required.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

and

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/th.../title-6-final-provisions/137-article-50.html

So theoretically we have already left the EU, and the two year period is a transition period allowed by the Treaty(ies), failing any other date being agreed in the Withdrawal Agreement, and none was.

If we accept Captain Black's argument that everything is prohibited unless it is allowed, a cancellation of Article 50 is not allowed.

 

[noseall]

EU offer the crappiest of crap deals.

Free trade amongst its members is hardly crappy.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Free trade amongst its members is hardly crappy.

It does not matter, there is probably no way back other than a new application to rejoin. Unless the EU amend the Treaty to allow the cancellation of an Article 50 notice.

 

[Notch7]

Nonsense!
The EU alone cannot make such a decision. Only the EU Council and the 27 other members can make such a decision, and it has to be unanimous!
Although the Lisbon Treaty does not make allowance for a cancellation of an Article 50 notice, It only makes provision for a delay of the same.

You are talking nonsense as usual

Go and do some more research, then come back when you know something

 

[motorbiking]

The only word you should have highlighted is negotiate. The text does not support any argument that there is an agreed bill for leaving the EU. It clearly states the parties attempt to negotiate a new arrangement and if they fail we leave in 2 years with neither party having any obligation to the other.

Remember : Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. The agreement on the divorce payment was to open the door on a trade etc. deal. If that is not agreed then nothing is agreed.

On the subject of avoiding Brexit - I gave one possible way it could happen. the EU have already said they would be happy for the UK to change their mind subject to agreement with the 27 and most of those have already said they are ok with it. Article 50, is silent on cancellation rights... It only describes the process for rejoining at the end of the period.

 

[JohnD]

It does not matter, there is probably no way back other than a new application to rejoin. Unless the EU amend the Treaty to allow the cancellation of an Article 50 notice.

Article 50 is quite short, and doesn't say that notice cannot be revoked while the country is still a member.

About two years ago, constitutional lawyers were interested in the question, and the last I heard was that it could be. EU leaders are bemused by the incompetent wranglings of Brexiteers and appear to be willing to accept the UK changing its mind if it wishes. But I don't see any expectation of a return to sanity, they are now preparing for the disastrous cliff-edge plummet that our more rabid Quitters desire.

Every time you think the Brexit Omnishambles can't get any worse, it gets worse.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

The only word you should have highlighted is negotiate. The text does not support any argument that there is an agreed bill for leaving the EU. It clearly states the parties attempt to negotiate a new arrangement and if they fail we leave in 2 years with neither party having any obligation to the other.
Remember : Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. The agreement on the divorce payment was to open the door on a trade etc. deal. If that is not agreed then nothing is agreed.

That was exactly what I said earlier:

The withdrawal has been agreed and it includes a divorce payment. It does not matter if it was not in the Article 50 part of the Lisbon Treaty, nor in the Holy Bible, the common prayer book, Enid Blyton's Famous Five books, nor anywhere else. it has been agreed!
Now if the UK wants an orderly withdrawal it will honour its agreement. Anything else is a disorderly withdrawal.

On the subject of avoiding Brexit - I gave one possible way it could happen. the EU have already said they would be happy for the UK to change their mind subject to agreement with the 27 and most of those have already said they are ok with it. Article 50, is silent on cancellation rights... It only describes the process for rejoining at the end of the period.

Has the EU agreed that? Have the other member states agreed that?
I have not seen anything. Only different opinions of various legal representatives, but they all agreed, until it is tried no-one knows for sure.

 

[motorbiking]

In Contract law, if something is non-cancellable or perpetual, it is normal to say so. All we have is the various speeches.. There seems to be a lot of harmony on the desire for us to come back during the period or after.

honestly I rate the chances as follows:
- Hard Brexit (we walk no deal) 20%
- soft, soft, hard (TMs current plan 30%
- further softening post negotiations 40%
- no Brexit 10%

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

In Contract law, if something is non-cancellable or perpetual, it is normal to say so. All we have is the various speeches..

This is not contract law. It is a Treaty.
Exactly, all we have is various opinions, all of which agree, it is yet to be defined on whether a recall is allowed.

There seems to be a lot of harmony on the desire for us to come back during the period or after.

I have not seen any official response on this issue either from EU or the other members.

At this rate I see us crashing out without a deal as about 50/50.
The only other possibility, assuming a recall is not possible, is a soft deal.