The Aquarius.

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

The Libyan Coastguard

Who are funded by the EU.

Libya has (or had) no coastguard. The state had been bombed into becoming a failed state. EU is now financing and training a fledgling Libyan coastguard.

That is the libyan coast guard in the majority of cases. Now trained and funded by the EU.

A point accepted by both MB and I back on page 2 and 3.

The Italian government is partly operating unilaterally in funding, training and supplying the Libyan coastguard. Some ships supplied by Italy to the Libyan coastguard have broken down en route to Libya!

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

RNLI do what the coastguard tells them. As would the vast majority of vessels assisting in a rescue. It’s what everyone is trained to do, from level 2 powerboat to commercial instructors

If the Rome based rescue center does not forward the coordinates of the boats in trouble to the NGO ships, but do forward the coordinates to the Libyan coastguard, the NGO ships are receiving no instructions from the Rome based rescue center! How can they disregard them?

If the Rome based rescue center operated correctly along with the SOLAS convention they would request all boats to speed to the rescue!
They do not! They forward the information to the Libyan coastguard! But not to the NGO ships!
Apart from your rather invalid point, I assume that you recognise that there is little difference between the RNLI and the NGO ships operating in the Mediterranean.
No-one, in their right mind, would deny the information to ships who are in position to effect a rescue, especially ships who are equipped and ready to effect a rescue, unless they are under political jurisdiction to operate in accordance with government policies.
Rescue centers operating along the SOLAS convention do not, or should not, be under individual government intervention.
Obviously the Rome based center is operating under the Italian government's direction.

 

[Notch7]

A point accepted by both MB and I back on page 2 and 3.

Yes, but conveniently ignoring the fact that the EU are financing a coast guard who arent exactly on the side of those fleeing.

Instead you bang on about far right governments, blaming them.

Its yet another cause for you to bang your self righteous drum instead of having an intelligent discussion.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Yes, but conveniently ignoring the fact that the EU are financing a coast guard who arent exactly on the side of those fleeing.

It is not ignored! It is a point well recognised. It is a point that both MB and I have made!
I see you are back to inventing stupid arguments.
But at least you are now better informed as to why the NGO ships do not simply "return the migrants back to Libya".
Great this intelligent discussion, is it not?

In fact the UN has imposed sanctions against some of the Libyans involved in the deals with EU. Some of those Libyans are suspected in being involved in people smuggling!
Sadly, some of the EU countrys' navies and coastguards are content to witness the abuse meted out to migrants from the Libyan coastguard without lifting a finger to help the migrants or to stop the abuse.
But that does not excuse the behaviour of the Italian government, nor support MB's claim that the NGO ships are not authorised to effect rescues, nor that only certain categories of ships are allowed to effect rescue, nor that certain ships can be morally denied from landing those rescued.

And especially that the SOLAS convention totally destroys MB's claims.

 

[motorbiking]

If the Rome based rescue center does not forward the coordinates of the boats in trouble to the NGO ships, but do forward the coordinates to the Libyan coastguard, the NGO ships are receiving no instructions from the Rome based rescue center! How can they disregard them?

If the Rome based rescue center operated correctly along with the SOLAS convention they would request all boats to speed to the rescue!
They do not! They forward the information to the Libyan coastguard! But not to the NGO ships!
Apart from your rather invalid point, I assume that you recognise that there is little difference between the RNLI and the NGO ships operating in the Mediterranean.
No-one, in their right mind, would deny the information to ships who are in position to effect a rescue, especially ships who are equipped and ready to effect a rescue, unless they are under political jurisdiction to operate in accordance with government policies.
Rescue centers operating along the SOLAS convention do not, or should not, be under individual government intervention.
Obviously the Rome based center is operating under the Italian government's direction.

Here are a few basics since you are so keen to learn. Forget your understanding of SOLAS, you’ve read a few pages, but are missing 100s.

A vessel will report another vessel in distress typically using the mayday or pan-pan relay protocol over VHF probably using Digital selective calling. Any vessel in range with a DSC radio will receive the coordinates of the relay along with the MMSI number (or local equivalent)of the relay vessel. DSC is a kind of text message system which tags messages with important data. If it’s out of range (10-12miles tops) they will either effect a relay or use a sat phone. So the NGO ships if in range would have received the relay call. If they didn’t then the coastguard will use Sat phone to work with the reporter while they scramble who ever they think is best to effect a rescue. Since the coastguard clearly have an issue with the way the NGOs are operating, its likely they won’t phone them. Every vessel with AIS fitted will be tracked, so the NGOs can easily work out where the action is.

Nothing here contravenes the regs. Coordinating authorities hand off all the time. Listen to vhf 16 on a busy weekend and you’ll here it going on all the time.

It’s also highly likely that the libyan coast guard is the closest to rescue. They may well identify a ship close by using AIS and contact them.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Here are a few basics since you are so keen to learn. Forget your understanding of SOLAS, you’ve read a few pages, but are missing 100s.

A vessel will report another vessel in distress typically using the mayday or pan-pan relay protocol over VHF probably using Digital selective calling. Any vessel in range with a DSC radio will receive the coordinates of the relay along with the MMSI number (or local equivalent)of the relay vessel. DSC is a kind of text message system which tags messages with important data. If it’s out of range (10-12miles tops) they will either effect a relay or use a sat phone. So the NGO ships if in range would have received the relay call. If they didn’t then the coastguard will use Sat phone to work with the reporter while they scramble who ever they think is best to effect a rescue. Since the coastguard clearly have an issue with the way the NGOs are operating, its likely they won’t phone them. Every vessel with AIS fitted will be tracked, so the NGOs can easily work out where the action is.

The migrants boats are equipped with a phone and the number of the rescue center, the one based in Rome!
The NGO ships (the Aquarius especially) have been aware of boats being reported in trouble but have been denied the coordinates, until the Libyan coastguard have effected a "rescue".

The coastguard may have an issue with the way NGOs are operating? The Libyan coastguard want the opportunity to rape and pillage the migrants.
When that is exhausted they demand money from the families of the migrants to release them!
Of course the Libyan coastguard have a problem with the NGOs!

You have recognised previously that boats not fitted with AIS can not be tracked.

 

[motorbiking]

No doubt these phones will be connected via the 4G masts dotted every 20 miles across the Med. Or do they put the call out while they are still in range off the coast of libya.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

No doubt these phones will be connected via the 4G masts dotted every 20 miles across the Med. Or do they put the call out while they are still in range off the coast of libya.

Satellite phone perhaps?
You have previously recognised that the cost of a second hand satellite phone is easily recouped from the money made from the migrants.
If the smugglers can afford to 'waste' a boat, the satellite phone is a secondary consideration.
£400 for a new satphone incorporating GPS.

I think you are struggling to maintain your argument, resorting to a comment like that.

 

[motorbiking]

A bit of googling will tell you that the traffickers inform the NGOs when they launch their dinghies.

Can you imagine the response in the UK if traffickers launched dinghies from cherbourg and French NGOs picked them up a few miles off and transported them to portsmouth as the nearest safe place.

I’m not aware of payg burner sat phones

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

A bit of googling will tell you that the traffickers inform the NGOs when they launch their dinghies.

Save us the time and provide links to such information.
How come then, that the NGOs rely on rescue centers informing them of migrants in trouble?

Can you imagine the response in the UK if traffickers launched dinghies from cherbourg and French NGOs picked them up a few miles off and transported them to portsmouth as the nearest safe place.

Can you imagine the response if the traffickers were also the Cherbourg coastguard, who raped, pillaged and abused those rescued, and detained them until their families had paid money to the 'coastguard'?

I’m not aware of payg burner sat phones

In some cases, vessels are equipped with a Thuraya satellite phone, and the number of the Rome-based Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC)

http://rescuesignatures.unglobalpulse.net/mediterranean/

https://www.satphone.co.uk/product/...02580530&ppcsu=xhg7f5djqrotinomllac#plan-type

Or if you want a new one:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thuraya-NA...-spons&keywords=thuraya+satellite+phone&psc=1
No doubt Amazon will deliver it for you.

 

[Notch7]

But that does not excuse the behaviour of the Italian government,

The previous centrist government, that negotiated deals for supporting the Libyan coastguard. The intention was to stop boats reaching Italy.

The quandry with this crisis is that there is a humanitarian issue but at the same time a much broader political complication. One that the EU has no current solution.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

The previous centrist government, that negotiated deals for supporting the Libyan coastguard. The intention was to stop boats reaching Italy.

The quandry with this crisis is that there is a humanitarian issue but at the same time a much broader political complication. One that the EU has no current solution.

Getting the hang of this intelligent discussion lark?
Good innit?

However, I would point out that because an institution cannot solve a problem, or even exacerbates that problem is no reason to junk the whole institution.
Imagine if the whole of the UK government was junked because they cocked up a situation. The Windrush scandal, the torture and rendition scandal, etc.

Don't mention the 'B' word!

There is an argument that if EU operated a proper, efficient, recognised system for processing asylum seekers, there would be no need for migrants to risk the sea crossing and the people traffickers would be out of business.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

A bit of googling will tell you that the traffickers inform the NGOs when they launch their dinghies.

Save us the time and provide links to such information.

Do we assume that you are unwilling to, or cannot provide links to such information.
It is out there, how about this one:

NEW EVIDENCE UNDERMINES EU REPORT TYING REFUGEE RESCUE GROUP TO SMUGGLERS

https://theintercept.com/2017/04/02...port-tying-refugee-rescue-group-to-smugglers/
All of the links refute your suggestion, prove it is based on gossip, or argues that is unproven.

Moreover, as of March 2018, the Libyan coastguard had no official SAR zone!

Despite EU insistence, the International Maritime Organization has not yet recognized a Libyan search-and-rescue zone, and Libya does not yet have a fully functioning maritime rescue coordination center.

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2018/mar/it-open-arms-boat-statements.htm