Underfloor heating in kitchen

[gcol]

That's better, now shake hands and don't do it again.

 

[MyNameOnly]

I don't know.

If you'd have said that to begin with it would have saved time.

Don`t use copper, if you can`t afford proper underfloor heating controlled by a roomstat & a manifold at least use plastic pipe. I think you will come unstuck anyway because you can`t just lay it down willy nilly, the fact that you are considering copper for your underfloor heating shows how incredibly out of your depth you are.

True, I haven't done this before, but why is copper pipe such a bad idea? Thanks.

I could tell him everything he needs to know, but he won't like it, and he says that he knows it all already anyway.

You just said previously that you didn't know why the design was flawed? What makes you assume that I wouldn't like it?

 

[MyNameOnly]

The very first thing I did was to imply, without a shadow of doubt, that your design was flawed.

Yes you did - but you never said why it was flawed.

Are you now conceding that you don't know all about the plumbing aspects?

Read it again.

You asked me why it was flawed, and I gave you my opinion, i.e. that you didn't know how to go about it.

Again, you never say what I'm doing to give you that impression nor did you offer any solutions to these "problems". I'm not prepared to converse with you any longer - I've only been on this board less than 24 hours and it already seems you go out of your way to be as unhelpful as you can be. So either take your bad attitude and get lost from this topic or point out the problems you can see and offer solutions.

 

[Softus]

The very first thing I did was to imply, without a shadow of doubt, that your design was flawed.

Yes you did - but you never said why it was flawed.

Somewhere I got the impression that you didn't want to know. I still think you don't want to know, because you still haven't asked.

Are you now conceding that you don't know all about the plumbing aspects?

Read it again.

I've read both this:

I don't have any problems with the plumbing etc.

...and this:

True, I haven't done this before, but why is copper pipe such a bad idea?

... and they seem to be in conflict. I know which one I believe, but I don't know which one you believe.

You asked me why it was flawed, and I gave you my opinion, i.e. that you didn't know how to go about it.

Again, you never say what I'm doing to give you that impression nor did you offer any solutions to these "problems".

I disagree. I asked you specific questions that would have led to more information, with the clear implication that you hadn't thought about the answers to those questions.

For example, I asked you how you were going to control the temperature, but you declined to answer that. Later, you gave an answer about temperature that revealed your inadequate design.

Bamber correctly pointed out that you need a manifold, but you didn't respond to that point.

I'm not prepared to converse with you any longer - I've only been on this board less than 24 hours and it already seems you go out of your way to be as unhelpful as you can be.

That's a wide-ranging statement based on a 24 hour membership.

The fact remains that your design is woefully inadequate. That isn't my fault, so if you don't like me pointing it out, then don't design it woefully. If you want help in designing it, then ask. If you want to be given accurate information, then be specific and truthful with yours. So far, you've been neither.

 

[MyNameOnly]

I'm not bothering to reply to your answers as it's going to just go round in circles. I'm prepared to start this topic afresh - are you? If you are - list the problems that you can see and I'll answer them to what I know and you can offer suitable corrections.

 

[Softus]

I'm prepared to start this topic afresh - are you?

Yes, but you might want to post it in P&CH rather than tiling.

Or if you mean here, then I foresee the following problems, as a starter.

1. You don't appear to have designed in a mechanism for controlling flow and temperature of the water in the underfloor zone.

2. You don't appear to have designed in a thermostat for setting and detecting room temperature in the underfloor zone.

3. You don't appear to have addressed the need for a layer of insulation under the heated floor pipework.

4. You've implied that you're going to pour concrete directly onto copper tubing, without any mechanical or corrosion protection.

5. The use of copper tubing is wholly inappropriate for wet underfloor heating.

 

[MyNameOnly]

1. You don't appear to have designed in a mechanism for controlling flow and temperature of the water in the underfloor zone.

The flow will be controlled by a valve; I'm not too worried about controlling the temperature of the water independently for that room. The system will be connected to the central heating in place of a radiator.

2. You don't appear to have designed in a thermostat for setting and detecting room temperature in the underfloor zone.

No, setting the temperature for the room isn't something I require; just a manual valve will suffice.

3. You don't appear to have addressed the need for a layer of insulation under the heated floor pipework.

What I was planning was cutting a polysterene sheet to shape to fit under the pipework. Will this be sufficient?

4. You've implied that you're going to pour concrete directly onto copper tubing, without any mechanical or corrosion protection.

No, I'm not going to be pouring concrete on top; it will stay open. The insulator will stop the contact between the copper pipe and the concrete.

5. The use of copper tubing is wholly inappropriate for wet underfloor heating.

Why is this? I'm prepared to use plastic pipes as Bamber gaspipe suggested, but what are the disadvantages and advantages to using them?

Thanks.

 

[Bamber gaspipe]

Why is this? I'm prepared to use plastic pipes as Bamber gaspipe suggested, but what are the disadvantages and advantages to using them?

Thanks.[/quote

Plainly the advantages of using flexible pipe is that when you get to the wall at the end of your run you can simply bend the plastic & make your way back. Do that probably 20-30 times is easy with 12mm underfloor plastic pipes. Try doing it with copper over a whole room. Impossible.

 

[MyNameOnly]

Plainly the advantages of using flexible pipe is that when you get to the wall at the end of your run you can simply bend the plastic & make your way back. Do that probably 20-30 times is easy with 12mm underfloor plastic pipes. Try doing it with copper over a whole room. Impossible.

I guess that is a good enough reason... Thanks.

 

[Softus]

The flow will be controlled by a valve; I'm not too worried about controlling the temperature of the water independently for that room. The system will be connected to the central heating in place of a radiator.

That would be entirely the wrong way to do it. The flow temperature from the boiler could be anything up to 80°C - very hot, both for any floor covering you choose, including tiles, and for your feet if the flooring gets anywhere near that hot.

No, setting the temperature for the room isn't something I require; just a manual valve will suffice.

You said that the water temperature would be 45-55°C, but unless you have a manual blending valve, you have no way of achieving even that.

And if you don't have any kind of blending valve, the energy loss from the area of flooring that you're going to heat up will take too much away from the rest of the house when the "manual valve" is open.

What I was planning was cutting a polysterene sheet to shape to fit under the pipework. Will this be sufficient?

No. No no no. No. No no no no no no no. No.

No, I'm not going to be pouring concrete on top; it will stay open. The insulator will stop the contact between the copper pipe and the concrete.

I'm confused by your use of the word "open", but wouldn't an insulator impede the transfer of heat?

I'm prepared to use plastic pipes as Bamber gaspipe suggested, but what are the disadvantages and advantages to using them?

Bamber has since covered this point.

Seriously - this project will go horribly wrong unless you research underfloor heating systems first. The kits aren't necessarily very expensive to buy, and you can install them yourself.

 

[MyNameOnly]

That would be entirely the wrong way to do it. The flow temperature from the boiler could be anything up to 80°C - very hot, both for any floor covering you choose, including tiles, and for your feet if the flooring gets anywhere near that hot.

The boiler is a combi, but the heating is never set above 55, it is generally ran at 45 degrees.

You said that the water temperature would be 45-55°C, but unless you have a manual blending valve, you have no way of achieving even that.

Yes, although this temperature is set from the boiler - that should be okay shouldn't it?

No. No no no. No. No no no no no no no. No.

Why no?

I'm confused by your use of the word "open", but wouldn't an insulator impede the transfer of heat?

Well, the insulator goes between the copper pipe (which I shall make plastic) and the concrete channel, it won't wrap around the entire pipe:

Thanks.

 

[Softus]

The boiler is a combi, but the heating is never set above 55, it is generally ran at 45 degrees.

I don't think we're talking the same language. How can your boiler heat the house if the output temperature is 45°C?

No. No no no. No. No no no no no no no. No.

Why no?

Compare the U value of sheet polythene with the insulation recommended by underfloor heating system manufacturers and required by the Building Regulations.

I'm confused by your use of the word "open", but wouldn't an insulator impede the transfer of heat?

Well, the insulator goes between the copper pipe (which I shall make plastic) and the concrete channel, it won't wrap around the entire pipe:

Your diagram implies that you intend to apply tile adhesive straight onto the pipework.

One of us is verging on the insane.

 

[MyNameOnly]

I don't think we're talking the same language. How can your boiler heat the house if the output temperature is 45°C?

It's not a large house, so that's all the temperature we need.

Your diagram implies that you intend to apply tile adhesive straight onto the pipework.

Well, I wasn't going to be applying the adhesive onto the pipework, but there wouldn't be anything between the pipework and tile other than a cm or so of nothing. It seems this isn't a very good idea...?

 

[Softus]

I don't think we're talking the same language. How can your boiler heat the house if the output temperature is 45°C?

It's not a large house, so that's all the temperature we need.

In the unlikely event that you're right, I don't see how you hope to satisfy the Building Regulations, and prospective purchasers of your house when you come to sell it.

Your diagram implies that you intend to apply tile adhesive straight onto the pipework.

Well, I wasn't going to be applying the adhesive onto the pipework, but there wouldn't be anything between the pipework and tile other than a cm or so of nothing. It seems this isn't a very good idea...?

Have you found a floor tile manufacturer, or supplier, or installer, or an adhesive manufacturer, or supplier, who thinks that having pockets of nothingness underneath floor tiles is a good idea?

 

[MyNameOnly]

Have you found a floor tile manufacturer, or supplier, or installer, or an adhesive manufacturer, or supplier, who thinks that having pockets of nothingness underneath floor tiles is a good idea?

To be very honest, I haven't. What do you recommend I use to fill in the channels with - perhaps a type of screed?