Viessmann advice pls compare 100W vs 200W models

[pgtips]

Hi,
Looking at the viessmann system boilers available, the Viessmann Vitodens 100-W System Boiler 30 but for just under £200 more I could have the 200-W version.

Its hard to make out what the main differences are though, weather compensation sounds useful but this is just a replacement boiler so no upgraded rads etc.
I'm not sold on it to be honest as a critical feature.

Is the 100 likely to be the older version so I'm better off with he new version or is there some other difference you could help me out with understanding.

£200 is £200 at the end of the day so I don't want to pay for the sake of it but of course as its big outlay I to want to get it right.

thanks for your help,
PG

 

[pgtips]

I should have checked first, although 4 years old the same Q was posted on this forum.
//www.diynot.com/diy/threads/viessmann-200w-or-100w-for-3-bed-semi-with-7-rads.334275/

 

[Gasguru]

Forget the initial price....look at cost of ownership, ie. including repairs and maintenance (manufacturers warranties are a lottery). Viessmann have a track record of extortionate spares prices. The quality is nothing special and some of the models are very complex with pioneering technology ie. you the customer will be the test bed.
Spares are normally courier only and as a result many installers avoid working on this make so support is patchy.

 

[muggles]

The 200-W will be MUCH more efficient in real-world terms, as it has 20:1 modulation (make sure you're getting the late 2016 B2HB model and not one of the remaining stock of the outgoing B2HA). If there's really only £200 difference between the two, and they're giving you the B2HB for that, then I'd snap their hands off. The 100-W is a completely different boiler, very inferior.

 

[pgtips]

Thank you muggles, useful to know. @Gasguru , what would you suggest, I have no idea as end user how I would find out cost of ownership, my current baxi boiler is 6 years old, I'm disgusted it's already beyond economical repair and has a design fault.
It's hard to nail it but I thought veissmann was a good quality option. 5 yr guarantee means they must have to stand behind the boiler design as the market is so competitive. Not the cheapest but not most expensive either.
10 people will give 10 different opinions. Is there any consensus out there ??

 

[muggles]

Viessmann are indeed expensive to repair once they're out of warranty, and their customer service isn't always the best either, but the 200-W is a technical revolution in terms of real-world efficiency.

If you want something a bit more bulletproof, look at the Intergas ECO RF. 10-year warranty, all-metal design, their heat exchanger has been in service in various boilers for 20 years now and has never had a failure. Only three moving parts if you use it as a system boiler (it's a bit of a one boiler fits all solution - it's a combi but you can also use it as a system boiler). Spares prices are reasonable and customer service is top notch. Not quite as real-world efficient as the Viessmann, but two thirds of the price to purchase and probably more reliable long-term

 

[pgtips]

Thank you, never heard of that but will read more on it tomorrow as it's a bit confusing to me " it's a combi but you can also use it as a system boiler"

But just the sort of help I needed to help me decide.

 

[Gasguru]

Don't believe all this effiiciency nonsense There's far too many companies that are totally obsessed with achieving the ultimate "efficiency" at any cost to the homeowner. Much of the modern technology has a track record of being unreliable and very expensive to repair with dubious long term savings.

It's no different to buying a turbo diesel car.....you'll get great mpg and providing the turbo and associated technology lasts, then long term you make the savings. Have a turbo failure within say 5 years and to many owners that will wipe out any savings made. Boilers are no different. The top end manufacturers are cramming everything they can into getting that extra % efficiency.....but in the long term it rarely pays it's way.

Just a few years ago a top boiler manufacturers literature was clearly stating that turn down ratios more than 5 or 6 have little real World benefit and it simply was worth doing. Then along comes Vokera with 10 to 1 and the turn down ratio arms escalation ramps up again. Now we have Viessmann with 20 to 1. To achieve it several extra complexities have been added.

It's fine if the diagnostics really work, the warranty and backup are really there, and if not the spares aren't truly extortionate. But on past experience diagnostics are not always that reliable, manufacturer backup can be poor and prices sky high. And arrogant German manufacturers have been the worst by a long way. Not only that but there's now a tendancy for boiler manufacturers to "modulise" burner components as it's become a complex area of boiler design. The Viessmann 200 W is no different and utilises the new INR77 module from ebmpapst. It's a combined mixer, gas valve, fan, air flow sensor. It's doubtful the individual parts will be available seperately...and out of warranty it could be megabucks (check the web for prices of their existing spares..pumps, pcb etcs). We've seen similar modules on other boiler makes at £400 plus....and they are manufacturers with normally half sensible prices.

And as for 20 to 1 just remember that if there's a prevailing wind it will never get down to that low figure....for burner stabilty the airflow is constantly monitored and the boiler will not ramp down to that level whilst the situation continues.

Think carefully about Intergas, I like the heat exchanger but backup is poor despite claims otherwise. I've waited a week for parts to come from the Netherlands and it's not an uncommon experience.

 

[pgtips]

thank you, it's all helpful info. & recommendations always welcome

As far as the Intergas (for anyone else who may come across this thread) "the Eco range of combi boilers can be converted to a system boiler very easily. The engineer doesn’t connect anything to the hot and cold pipes on the boiler and then the engineer changers a simple setting on the boiler software to isolate the hot water and only work as a heat only boiler." A heat only boiler does CH and hot water cylinder despite being called heat only.

It does leave me wondering as to the 'combi' part of the boiler, what happens to that does it just sit there redundant. Maybe one day I might want to go combi rather than heat only so I suppose that's a thought.

I think I understand with boilers they can be good but sometimes bad and it can come down to the installers experiences. I can choose between intergas, or the Viessmann 100 or 200. So cost of parts vs cost of time without parts vs cost of the unit in the first place. I have a couple of engineers booked in this week so at least I will be able to understand whats what.

Thanks to all.

 

[Jay Kay]

Forget the initial price....look at cost of ownership, ie. including repairs and maintenance (manufacturers warranties are a lottery). Viessmann have a track record of extortionate spares prices. The quality is nothing special and some of the models are very complex with pioneering technology ie. you the customer will be the test bed.
Spares are normally courier only and as a result many installers avoid working on this make so support is patchy.

............................
I know this Thread is a year old but I was wondering which Combi Boiler ‘Casguru’ would recommend??
I’m leaning towards a Viessmann Vitodens 200 30kw..
Also looking at the Vaillant EcoTEC Pro 832 as 2nd choice..??
And Lastly the Ideal Vogue Max C32 Gen2..
Choices, choices! It’s certainly a Mine Field!!
Look forward to your reply.. Cheers!
PS: Also wondering how the Original Poster, ‘PGTips’ got on?
Which Boiler did you go for and have you been happy with it?? Thanks!!

 

[Gasguru]

What don't you get about hopeless German engineering and extortionate spares prices

It's a case of weighing up the pros and cons of each make AND model and making a compromise.

If it's an Ideal I would go for the Logic range...they've been out a long time and have relatively few issues. I wouldn't touch the Vogue range...they use the French Gianonni heat exchanger and if the system water isn't spotless they are more prone to problems....and warranties are unlikely to be honoured. Ideal are a French owned company...ignore the made in the UK...what they mean is assembled in the UK from 90% imported parts.

 

[muggles]

If it's an Ideal I would go for the Logic range...they've been out a long time and have relatively few issues

Apart from failing heat exchangers, splitting sumps, leaking diverter valve pins which take out the electrics, crap pressure sensors and the odd leaking condensate hose, they're brilliant

 

[Gasguru]

I said relatively few...
The majority of hex failures were replaced under warranty and since it's a manufacturing issue I'd assume they have solved the problem. Split sumps...big deal easy job. Leaking diverters..just like so many others.
Come up with an alternative rather than slagging off a post Reminds me why it's not worth bothering to post on this forum with **** replies...

 

[muggles]

Just stating facts dude, no need to start throwing insults.... Ideal might have replaced failed hexes under warranty but I know from bitter experience that it's a fight to get them to do it. Something being an easy job to fix doesn't make it a good quality part to start with. I can give you an alternative in Intergas. Yes they do now seem to have broken their zero failure rate on heat exchanger failures but it's still got to be the lowest percentage on the market. I've never heard of a sump failure on them and I can absolutely 100% guarantee they've never had a single diverter valve leak

 

[Gasguru]

Another Intergas rep.