viessmann vitotrol 150

[ALEC1]

Yes we in england seem to forget that we have heating to be warm. We seem to want to turn everything off and complain that technology doesn't do it's job.

If you want a large body to hold heat spending some energy is inevitable... the pump running is probably seen as a good alternative to turning things off and on which inevitably produces over and undershoot...and all the inefficiencies that go with that..

In germany I have heard of using pumps running to move warmth from a warm side of a building to a cooler side...I suspect this is the same sort of idea...

How you can prove that I dont know..

i would there is almost certainly a parameter which can turn the pump off as you desire...but you need to look at and understand the book.

have you tried lowering the reduced room temperature? That should see it off out of the heating periods..but note you may have to start the heating period earlier

If you are particularly worried about the pump cost then I would get it changed for a viessmann modulating one...they do use much less energy...

 

[igotalake]

i'd love to have the boiler going all the time, the problem is that i can't afford it. i know the pump alone (and any heat lost into the boiler shed) is a pretty small amount of money compared to a tankful of oil but it would still equate to leaving 3 of your light bulbs non-low energy and most people (and the government) would advise against doing that.
to be honest, this probably isn't the right boiler for me but as it was already installed i have to try and live with it.

i accept that having the pump running constantly is useful if the boiler is running most of the time but in my case it runs only from 8am til 9am and from 6pm til 8pm so the long periods in between do not necessitate the pump running. i believe there is a code that causes the boiler to heat up the water in preparation before entering standard room temp mode (boiler on) which should be fine for my case.

i have dropped the reduced temp to 3 degrees and that seems to be the cause of the pump to not run when there is a lot of heat left in the water, for example at the end of a 'boiler on' cycle.

with my level of understanding of the system i can't seem to get past the current issue of either unnecessarily pumping unheated water or not pumping water even though it is at 70 degrees. i don't really understand for instance, 'extended economy mode' and i find that certain coding addresses that may be of use are 'locked out' and the paperwork i have does not explain things fully enough for me.
also, i fitted a vitotrol 200 yesterday which senses the actual room temperature and i have checked that the vitotrol has been recognised by the boiler and that it is sensing the temperature. i had hoped (and been advised somewhere) that installing this would solve the problem. one issue exists though: there are 4 switches on the back that i have left 'as delivered' as i couldn't decipher the german installation instructions and perhaps for my system they need to be changed.

 

[barrymah]

As someone who 'butted in' to this thread and posted another (without success) I have had time to look through the French Viessmann site and my manuals, in French.

The purpose of the 'pumping out of hours' according to the French manuals is to avoid the pump blocking. I was away one year for most of the Summer and turned off the whole thing (as suggested in the manual for Summer absence!!). When I got back it wouldn't start and my plumber discovered the pump spindle was blocked. He got it going again easily by just budging it.

Now I leave the system on standby when I go away. I tried standby for a while just to see what happened and there was almost no movement when the weather was warm. I think the system is intelligent enough to recognise the differences to the ambient and reacts appropriately.

As to the 'cooling effect' - I wonder, as has been said here there is a sort of paranoia about having the burner on, but starting from cold is probably using more fuel. If the premises is well insulated, and there is plenty of recent evidence that investing in more insulation is worthwhile, then your 'losses' when the pump runs at night should be negligable.

BTW, my 'problem' with the pump seemed to have resolved itself, coming on and off as required to keep the temp up. It also runs for about 15 mins every two hours or so during the night (I'm a light sleeper )

 

[barrymah]

[quote="igotalake";p="1870360"[/quote]

i believe there is a code that causes the boiler to heat up the water in preparation before entering standard room temp mode (boiler on) which should be fine for my case.

I don't recall the details of your installation, mine (in France) has separate controls for hot water and heating. As I said in my earlier post I have reduced the hot water bit to 1.5 hours a day, 30 mins at 06.00 and 1 hour at 15.30. Works fine for me. I do notice that the 'priority' icon for the water heating on the screen seems to stay on after the 'official hours' but actually it isn't on if the hot water temp is reached, and goes off when the heating needs a boost.

i have dropped the reduced temp to 3 degrees and that seems to be the cause of the pump to not run when there is a lot of heat left in the water, for example at the end of a 'boiler on' cycle.

Yes, as I said in the recent post that is my experience. Mine was set to 3C as a default when it was installed, I never moved it.

with my level of understanding of the system i can't seem to get past the current issue of either unnecessarily pumping unheated water or not pumping water even though it is at 70 degrees. i don't really understand for instance, 'extended economy mode' and i find that certain coding addresses that may be of use are 'locked out' and the paperwork i have does not explain things fully enough for me.

I appreciate your problems with the cost of oil and understand your decision to limit the on times, but I think your defeating the purpose of the controls. The factory default is 06.00 to 22.00 in mine, and I think the whole system is geared around that. As it comes on at random intervals (to stop the pump seizing and protect against frost damage) and you have a very limited heating cycle you will inevitably be pumping cooler water.

For information, mine is a 140SqM house with an 'open plan' design, although it is very old, which is why I haven't installed a thermostat. I run the heating from late October to mid March most years, I am based in Provence, about 60km North of Marseille, hence short Winter. I use on average 1000L of fuel a year, including hot water that is on all the time. I have 9 rads and each has a thermo valve.

also, i fitted a vitotrol 200 yesterday which senses the actual room temperature and i have checked that the vitotrol has been recognised by the boiler and that it is sensing the temperature. i had hoped (and been advised somewhere) that installing this would solve the problem. one issue exists though: there are 4 switches on the back that i have left 'as delivered' as i couldn't decipher the german installation instructions and perhaps for my system they need to be changed.

I have found English and French manuals on the Internet as PDFs. If you need I can find them and email the url to you.

 

[igotalake]

hi barry,

so you're much further south than me. i used about 100 litres in a week just after the new year. we came back from a christmas trip to the uk and the place was very cold so i thought i'd let the heating loose for a while and then after a week i looked at the tank gauge....

as i said before, i would really love to have the heating keep the place warm all the time but this is also a big old place and the costs would be too much for us. plus we have a rayburn going in the kitchen and a woodburner in the lounge which do the job on their own when it's not too cold but i would like the boiler to actually take account of the actual need or desire for heating. i thought this vitotrol would at least help i.e. the set room temp is 20 degrees so it should stop it coming on when the room temp is already at 21 degrees, but no. i am coming to the conclusion that there is a fault with the controller as this should clearly not happen or what is the actual point of this room stat device?

the fact that i can't get the pump to stop pumping out of hours unless it also stops pumping even when there is lots of useable heat in the boiler circuit is unfortunately, to me, a problem. the issue of stopping the pump seizing up is dealt with in stand by mode by spinning the pump every 24 hours which is a good innovation but that is not the reason it pumps continually in red. temp. mode. unless, of course, you drop red. temp. setting to 3 degrees which means it stops pumping immediately the boiler shuts down which leaves the boiler at 70 degrees to cool down via the external air of the boiler shed....neither option is efficient or eco friendly.

more insulation is better of course. my issue is really about the fact that my boiler, which is a big thing, is situated in the shed. it is therefore in an environment which is more or less at outside temperature. when the water is pumped around at night (when even the viessmann factory settings would have the burner off) it is drawing water from the rads which are at 20 degrees and passing them through a boiler and boilerroom that is at a lower temperature thereby cooling the water before passing it back through the rads. this colder water passing through the rads MUST cool the room down. as the boiler shed gets colder this effect gets greater. this is in no way advantageous to the heating system except if carrying out frost protection but as you and i have both said, this happens even if the outside temp is substantially above freezing.

perhaps there is not a massive amount of lost energy to worry about but i just want to stop any lost energy that i can. it's not worth adding an extra bit of insulation on the one hand and letting the boiler waste electricity and residual heat on the other.

 

[igotalake]

hi again barry,

if you have the time, i would much appreciate a copy of the english instructions for the vitotrol 200 if you can upload them.

i am convinced it is not working correctly even though the vitotronic control has recognised it and shows the correct room temp.


thanks,

john.

 

[igotalake]

barry, just to save you time, i mean the installation instructions rather than user instructions.

regards,

 

[barrymah]

Here -

http://www.viessmann.ca/etc/mediali...ar.44220.File.File.tmp/Vitotronic_200_TDM.pdf

is a canadian manual for the whole setup including the vitotrol200

and here -

http://www.heatinghelp.com/files/posts/1728/Vitotrol 200 Operating Instructions.pdf

is the operating instructions, which you probably have.

One other idea, have you thought about insulating the shed?

Good luck

 

[igotalake]

the first link is actually for the vitoTRONIC 200 rather than the vitoTROL 200...confusing names they have used!

insulating the shed? ha ha! that's certainly possible but i would find it extremely bizarre if that was the only way to avoid unnecessary heat loss.
i intend to contact viessmann again, perhaps today if i have the time, with some specific questions to try and ascertain if there is actually a fault or not.

 

[barrymah]

the first link is actually for the vitoTRONIC 200 rather than the vitoTROL 200...confusing names they have used!

It also includes details of the installation of vitotrol 200 and 300 with a vitotronic; not much but some..did you have a look at the link??

 

[igotalake]

yes i had a quick look but it's just a short description of the vitotrol 200 as an accessory for the vitotronic.

thanks for the effort though.

 

[igotalake]

**Resurrection**

Ok, it's time to heat again and my problem is still here. I bought a vitotrol 200 room stat/controller but it's made no difference: if reduced room temp is set to 3 deg C then the pump stops immediately after heating cycle leaving the 70 deg c water to dissipate heat in the boiler shed OR/ set reduced room temp to 4 deg C or above and pump runs constantly pumping cold water round the house.

I've changed all the codings that would appear to have any relevance to pump control but no joy.

Now i don't expect anyone to answer this but does this indicate a faulty controller or what?

 

[Agile]

This is when we would expect Mystery Man to be replying!

Have you tried to get any help from Viessmann in France or Germany?

Tony

 

[igotalake]

ah, mystery man...input from him would be good but if he replied now it would spoil all the mystery

i have contacted viessmann.de and have had suggestions relating to various codings i could try but nothing has worked as yet.

 

[mysteryman]

Life is just one great mystery, isn't it?

There are Vitotro nics and Vi totrols - just as there are Metros, Maestros, Montegos - and Mondeos.

There are many different sub-types of both. Please let us know which you have, and bear in mind that not all products are sold in the UK. I've been trying to get a good understanding of these devices from Viess -mann for years!