Water Softener installation problem

[ndes79]

Hi guys,

I'm new here so go easy!

Have just had water softener installation guy round to install a new Kinetico 2020C HF as we have incredibly hard water. Also bought a Kinetico 9000 drinking water system.

Unfortunately we have hit a brick wall. The main water pipe entering the house was renewed about 10 years ago with a blue poly type. When he shut off the stop cock to the main water pipe, no more running water upstairs but the kitchen still had running water. There is another stopcock in the kitchen under the breakfast bar which seems to switch off the water supply to the kitchen.

From that, he concluded that I have a split main and a softener install under the sink would only soften the water to the kitchen and not to the rest of the property.

So I said, why don't you fit the softener before the main is split, ie. in the hallway in the under-stair cupboard. He said that was not possible as the softener needs a drain and overflow and there is nothing in that vicinity to allow for that.

I am gutted as I was really looking forward to having soft water in the whole house!

Anyone think of a solution apart from ripping up the tiled floor in the kitchen to have the pipework renewed?

Thanks.

 

[Nige F]

Hi guys,

I'm new here so go easy!

would only soften the water to the kitchen and not to the rest of the property.

I am gutted as I was really looking forward to having soft water in the whole house!

Anyone think of a solution apart from ripping up the tiled floor in the kitchen to have the pipework renewed?

Thanks.

the kitchen is the only place you don`t want softened Cold Water .It needs a normal Wholesome (potable) supply from the mains - Is the guy a Kinetico recommended plumber or a Kin e jit . Most things are possible but a softener does need a waste connection and an overflow - if you can run those, you`re in with a chance. It seems like the only way would be a site visit - and we don`t do that maybe you could load some photos and drawings

 

[ndes79]

Hi guys,

I'm new here so go easy!

would only soften the water to the kitchen and not to the rest of the property.

I am gutted as I was really looking forward to having soft water in the whole house!

Anyone think of a solution apart from ripping up the tiled floor in the kitchen to have the pipework renewed?

Thanks.

the kitchen is the only place you don`t want softened Cold Water .It needs a normal Wholesome (potable) supply from the mains - Is the guy a Kinetico recommended plumber or a Kin e jit . Most things are possible but a softener does need a waste connection and an overflow - if you can run those, you`re in with a chance. It seems like the only way would be a site visit - and we don`t do that maybe you could load some photos and drawings

Hi Nige, thanks for replying.

We DO want softended water in the kitchen as this would solve the problem of limescale and soap scum etc at the kitchen sink. We have also purchased a Kinetico 9000 drinking water system so that would have been installed under the sink to provide filtered drinking water to a separate tap installed at the corner of the sink. Here's a link to what I'm talking about http://www.simply-soft.co.uk/model9000_shop.htm

The whole system was purchased and was going to be installed by Simply Soft, who are one of the top Kinetico installers. We bought the whole system, at the Ideal Home Show earlier this year.

 

[plumber1722]

the water at your kitchen sink HAS TO BE FRESH POTABLE DRINKING WATER not softend im sure its against water regs to soften it so dont do it if they find out you may get fined alot of money and youll be drinking salted water fit the softner to the main thats feeding the rest of the house and the feed to the boiler and fit water conditioners to the pipework to your washing machine/dishwasher if there feed from the kitchen main

 

[ndes79]

Hi plumber1722. I was told that I could drink the softened water if I wanted to and there was no problem with that but some people do not like the taste so they could install a separate drinking water system that feeds a separate tap on the sink that they would install too. They said they would install the drinking water system free of charge for me so I decided to go for it.

I'm not sure it's against water regs to have softened water at the kitchen sink unless you have a lead main supply pipe as softened water may cause pick-up of lead. Since we have a blue poly water main, this doesn't apply.

I'd be interested to know where you read about it being against water regs as I'm starting to wonder whether I was fed a bunch of lies in order to clinch the sale.

 

[Nige F]

I don`t think you`ve been mis sold - just not told enough tech. info. The water treatment filter is fine for drinking and will stop your kettle etc. furring - But it`s not an Ion exchange water softener - the larger whole house unit is . The last time I looked @ the regs. was years ago and it was stated then that the one tap ( kitchen cold ) was not to be fed with Ion Exchange softened water - and I think that softened water is not recommended for Central Heating radiator systems and boilers . At your sink you need softened Hot water and filtered(treated) cold mains. The big issue is siting the softener so that it can run to a suitable waste pipe and have an overflow pipe too - and you can get @ it reasonably easily to replenish salt. Have a look around the FAQ`s and sticky`s on this site - there are probably some good explanations + tech. details from the guys

 

[ndes79]

Thanks for your advice guys I really appreciate it. Okay what I have realised is that the cold water at the kitchen sink would not be plumbed through the water softener and would be plumbed through the drinking water filter instead. I just shut off the main stopcock and I still have HOT water coming to the kitchen sink so it looks like I do have that 'split' main and siting a water softener under the kitchen sink would not work to soften the supply to the whole house (bar the cold kitchen sink water).

The only way I can think to do it is to have the water softener installed under the stairs but there lies the issue with providing for a waste and overflow.

Any ideas?????? I'm stumped!

 

[Onetap]

I just shut off the main stopcock and I still have HOT water coming to the kitchen sink so it looks like I do have that 'split' main and siting a water softener under the kitchen sink would not work to soften the supply to the whole house (bar the cold kitchen sink water).
!

What type of system is it?

Do you have a cold water storage tank in the loft and a vented hot water cylinder? If so, you would get hot water flowing with the mains off until the storage tank was empty. You'd also get cold water flowing temporarily while the rising main drained through the cold kitchen tap.

 

[ndes79]

I just shut off the main stopcock and I still have HOT water coming to the kitchen sink so it looks like I do have that 'split' main and siting a water softener under the kitchen sink would not work to soften the supply to the whole house (bar the cold kitchen sink water).
!

What type of system is it?

Do you have a cold water storage tank in the loft and a vented hot water cylinder? If so, you would get hot water flowing with the mains off until the storage tank was empty. You'd also get cold water flowing temporarily while the rising main drained through the cold kitchen tap.

Hi. We do not have any storage tanks. It is mains fed throughout and hot water via combi boiler.

 

[Onetap]

Hi. We do not have any storage tanks. It is mains fed throughout and hot water via combi boiler.

You're pretty much stuck then, until you can figure out the layout of your water installation.

It sounds as if there is a branch in the mains service pipe, before the stopcock or there are two mains supplies into the property, possibly one from an adjoining property and passing through their meter.

 

[ndes79]

Hi. We do not have any storage tanks. It is mains fed throughout and hot water via combi boiler.

You're pretty much stuck then, until you can figure out the layout of your water installation.

It sounds as if there is a branch in the mains service pipe, before the stopcock or there are two mains supplies into the property, possibly one from an adjoining property and passing through their meter.

Hi again.

I believe there is a branch in the mains service pipe, before the stop cock as you say. When I shut the main stop cock I don't get running water anywhere apart from the kitchen which is at the back of the ground floor. There is a further stopcock situated under the breakfast bar which stops the supply to the kitchen.

I'm actually really peeved that when our mains pipe was replaced (albeit 10 years ago), the plumber did not realise or advise us that the layout was not ideal and that the mains pipe should have gone all the way behind the kitchen sink with a stop cock there to turn the complete supply off, then run back to the hallway/kitchen boundary to join with the pipe that services the first floor of the house. That would have been the correct layout, am I right?

It seems that I have two options:-

1) Remove tiled floor in kitchen and dig up concrete floor, replace layout with correct layout as above.

2) Install water softener before the mains pipe branches off and run pipes from softener to overflow and waste (some 7 metres away under kitchen sink) - but this option would also mean taking up floor

A third quite radical solution just came to mind. What if I was to install one softener under the kitchen sink as previously envisaged and a further softener upstairs to service the rest of the property? Has anyone ever done this or does it seem a step too far?

 

[plumber1722]

hi all

ive just had a look at the regs on page 10.4 its saying that if you soften your supply you have to have an unsoftened tap for drinking direct from the mains so you can have the sink softened but you must have a drinking tap i also had a look at the fliud categories from what i understand softened water is fluid category 2 but may be 3 which has a slight health risk

hope this helps

 

[ndes79]

Hi again plumber1722.

Yes, that seems correct. We were going to have the seperate drinking water system via a seperate tap which would have been installed on the kitchen sink - this would be filtered but not softened.

Anyway it seems that my only real solution is to have the kitchen floor dug up yet again and have the pipework renewed, if I really want that water softener - which I do!

 

[plumber1722]

hello again

might be a good idea to have your incoming mains altered so there is only one main supplying the whole house since the floor is going to be up anyway just food for thought i hope it all goes well

regards

plumber1722

ps please feel free to look at my facebook page armstrong Plumbing and Property Services

 

[Nige F]

Hi. We do not have any storage tanks. It is mains fed throughout and hot water via combi boiler.

.

Hi again.

I believe there is a branch in the mains service pipe, before the stop cock as you say. When I shut the main stop cock I don't get running water anywhere apart from the kitchen which is at the back of the ground floor. There is a further stopcock situated under the breakfast bar which stops the supply to the kitchen.

It seems that I have options:-



A third quite radical solution just came to mind. What if I was to install one softener under the kitchen sink as previously envisaged and a further softener upstairs to service the rest of the property? Has anyone ever done this or does it seem a step too far?

Your filter is AFAIK also a water conditioner which will allow you to have a scale free kettle SO if you haven`t a problem with carrying the bags of salt upstairs to the softener - go for the one you have upstairs - And trust the filter/water conditioner to work on the sink