Wiring centre madness

[Taylortwocities]

I can't see why yellow wires need sleaving red myself

So you are happy, then, with black switched lives not being sleeved brown?

 

[AndyPRK]

No I didn't say that.

People need every clue possible with the new colours.

 

[JohnW2]

514.1.1 begins: "Except where there is no possibility of confusion,...".

It does, indeed, but if you'd carried that quote a bit further, you will have noticed that it relates to the identification of each item of switchgear and controlgear!!

514.3.1, which relates to the identification of cores of cables (which is what I thought we were talking about) does not appear have any corresponding qualification/caveat.

... or am I missing something?

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

It does, indeed, but if you'd carried that quote a bit further, you will have noticed that it relates to the identification of each item of switchgear and control gear!!

Do you not think that 514.1 'General', along with 514.2 & 3 apply to the whole of section 514?

514.3.1, which relates to the identification of cores of cables (which is what I thought we were talking about) does not appear have any corresponding qualification/caveat.
... or am I missing something?

Depends on the above.

 

[JohnW2]

It does, indeed, but if you'd carried that quote a bit further, you will have noticed that it relates to the identification of each item of switchgear and control gear!!

Do you not think that 514.1 'General', along with 514.2 & 3 apply to the whole of section 514?

Well, perhaps I'm being dim, but I really can't see how (regardless of where it appears within the structure of this chapter of the regs) a sentence which reads "Except when there is no possibility of confusion, a label or other means of identification shall be provided to indicate the purpose of each item of switchgear and controlgear" can possibly have any relevance to the identification of cores/conductors, can you?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Tronjob]

Maybe it was time to call a professional in that case.

What? One of the so-called 'boiler engineers' that installed this mess in the first place?

 

[EFLImpudence]

=Well, perhaps I'm being dim, but I really can't see how (regardless of where it appears within the structure of this chapter of the regs) a sentence which reads "Except when there is no possibility of confusion, a label or other means of identification shall be provided to indicate the purpose of each item of switchgear and controlgear" can possibly have any relevance to the identification of cores/conductors, can you?

I understand that point. I shall have to concede.
So does that mean wiring (as in this thread) should also be labelled for the device it controls, unless there is no possibility of confusion?

As in this thread, regarding the wiring centre for central heating, according to Table 51 no sleeving is required for any control cable conductors be they Brown, Black, Red, Orange, Yellow, Violet, Grey, White, Pink or Turquoise; (nor Blue as it will be Neutral).
Surely the black and grey could cause confusion.

I fail to see the logic, for example in a three-gang, two-way switch where there may be fifteen line conductors, of sleeving the nine which are not brown.

 

[JohnW2]

I understand that point. I shall have to concede. ... So does that mean wiring (as in this thread) should also be labelled for the device it controls, unless there is no possibility of confusion?

If, by 'that', you mean 414.1.1, I don't think that requires anything in terms of labelling of wiring, since it is only about 'switchgear and controlgear'.

I'm a little surprised you haven't cited 514.1.2, which starts off "So far is reasonably practicable..." when talking about the 'arrangement or marking' of wiring to identify it. However, that seems to be over-ridden by 514.3.1 which effectively requires all cores to be 'identified'.

As in this thread, regarding the wiring centre for central heating, according to Table 51 no sleeving is required for any control cable conductors be they Brown, Black, Red, Orange, Yellow, Violet, Grey, White, Pink or Turquoise; (nor Blue as it will be Neutral).

Indeed.

Surely the black and grey could cause confusion.

Well, black and grey are, per Table 51, line conductor colours, albeit intended for L2 and L3 in 3-phase systems. As far as I can make out, in most of 514 and, in particular Table 51, the only sort of identification which really worries the regs is that between L & N (or L1/L2/L3 in 3-phase systems) - so, provided that blue is used neutral (and nothing else), and G/Y for CPC/earth, I think the regs are probably satisfied- and, if it's clearly a single-phase system, brown and black as line conductors is probably also OK.

I fail to see the logic, for example in a three-gang, two-way switch where there may be fifteen line conductors, of sleeving the nine which are not brown.

I'm not sure that I understand your arithmetic but, apart from that, I agree that, as above, provided that none of those conductors are blue, brown sleeving is probably not required. AFAICS, the issue really only relates to blue conductors (and possibly G/Y ones - but let's not get onto that one again ).

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I'm a little surprised you haven't cited 514.1.2, which starts off "So far is reasonably practicable..." when talking about the 'arrangement or marking' of wiring to identify it.

I did mention 1.2 and 1.3 'generally' applying to the whole section but you disagreed and I cannot argue.
Although, 'General' is a silly title for specific instructions.

However, that seems to be over-ridden by 514.3.1 which effectively requires all cores to be 'identified'.

It does unless covered by the 'general' section.

Re: the maths.
Two-way switch with a Brown/Blue switch and Brown/Black/Grey strapper times three -
Six brown and nine not.

 

[SimonH2]

Having said that, I would not personally be very comfortable (even if it were compliant) to have unsleeved conductors with insulation colours (e.g. brown or blue) which did not correspond to their normal meaning, ...

I think there is a case for saying that here, it is expected that most of the cores will not be "neutral" or "unswitched live". Yes it would help if things were explicitly identified, but other than the pump and valve, non of the other cores would have a standard wiring pattern to conform to (in terms of core colour) and therefore it would be for the person doing the work to identify what they are - typically starting with the valve which does have "known" functions for the different colour cores and working back.

EDIT: Just adding brown sleeving to any "live" core that isn't already brown (and blue to any neutral that isn't already blue) won;t actually achieve anything useful. The only exception IMO would be that it would certainly be very poor practice (and from what I;ve read here, not in accordance with regs) to not sleeve a G/Y core to indicate it's not a CPC.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm a little surprised you haven't cited 514.1.2, which starts off "So far is reasonably practicable..." when talking about the 'arrangement or marking' of wiring to identify it.

I did mention 1.2 and 1.3 'generally' applying to the whole section but you disagreed and I cannot argue. Although, 'General' is a silly title for specific instructions.

Surely the big difference between 514.1.2 and 514.1.3 is that the former relates specifically to identification of 'switchgear and controlgear' (hence not relevant to the conductor identification we are discussing), whereas the later relates to identification of 'wiring' (which I would have thought is relevant).

Re: the maths. ... Two-way switch with a Brown/Blue switch and Brown/Black/Grey strapper times three - Six brown and nine not.

Ah, I see I was thinking about 'the other end', where there would onbly be the strappers!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I think there is a case for saying that here, it is expected that most of the cores will not be "neutral" or "unswitched live". Yes it would help if things were explicitly identified, but other than the pump and valve, non of the other cores would have a standard wiring pattern to conform to (in terms of core colour) and therefore it would be for the person doing the work to identify what they are - typically starting with the valve which does have "known" functions for the different colour cores and working back.

As I wrote before, I think the regs are not so much concerned about 'functional identification' but, rather, with just the distinction between L and N. Table 51 indicates that, in an AC circuit, nearly all colours (apart from brown, blue and G/Y) can be used to 'identify' a line conductor. So, as I said before, my only real concerns would be if blue was used for line, or brown for neutral, without oversleeving (but apparently 'compliant' compliant because they were 'identified' by numbers'). The regs already forbid the use of G/Y to identify anything other than earth/CPC, so I don't need to worry about that one!

EDIT: Just adding brown sleeving to any "live" core that isn't already brown (and blue to any neutral that isn't already blue) won;t actually achieve anything useful.

As above, I don't think there is any requirement to put a brown sleeve on anything other than blue (and, heaven forbid, G/Y) that is being used as a line conductor.

'Functional identification' (i.e. indicating 'what is what' out of a number of line, or even neutral, conductors) is clearly important/desirable, but appears to be a different matter from what most of the regs are most concerned about (namely the L/N distinction). All those other permitted line colours then come into play, but neutral seemingly always has to be blue, even if there are umpteen 'blue neutrals' (so one has to use something other than colour for distinguishing between them).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Steelmasons]

Maybe it was time to call a professional in that case.

What? One of the so-called 'boiler engineers' that installed this mess in the first place?

Clearly 90% of sparks haven't a clue with regard to heating controls wireing so obviously needs must.

Most electicians wouldn't know the difference between a Y/S/W/C/S+ control system.

....and Tronjob I would bet all the tea in China your controls wiring was carried out by an electrician and NOT a heating engineer , the telltale signs are plastered all over it.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Clearly 90% of sparks haven't a clue with regard to heating controls wireing so obviously needs must.

So, obviously not done by one of the 90%, then, because, presumably, it works.

Most electicians wouldn't know the difference between a Y/S/W/C/S+ control system.

So, likely done by a heating engineer, then.

You are stating that 90% of electricians cannot follow a wiring diagram.
A bit of a disadvantage for an electrician, I would think.

....and Tronjob I would bet all the tea in China your controls wiring was carried out by an electrician and NOT a heating engineer , the telltale signs are plastered all over it.

Lucky to get one of the 10%, then.


Which quality is possessed by heating engineers that endows them with superior knowledge of electrics than electricians?
I wish they were all as wonderful as you make out then perhaps I could get the boiler repaired.


Keep cross-bonding under the boiler.

 

[Steelmasons]

So, obviously not done by one of the 90%, then, because, presumably, it works.

Obviously it works as one only has to look @ the wiring centre but it begs the question if it was wired by one of the elite 10% then why not supply enough cores from programmer/room stat instead of having to use cores that require sleeving to which are not (room stat/programmer CH on)

So, likely done by a heating engineer, then.

Obviously not looking @ that box with all the controls wireing crammed in , as said a sure sign of the 10% of electricians that follow a wiring diagram.

Which quality is possessed by heating engineers that endows them with superior knowledge of electrics than electricians?

Obviously the heating engineers that don't require a wiring diagram not only to install but obviously to fault find , many times us heating engineers get called in when you "electricians" can't find the fault due to not having a clue regards controls wiring and to top it off you have the wiring diagrams to hand and still walk off the job with tail between your legs.