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knuckles

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:11 pm Reply with quote

Check your DHW flow rate, if it's higher than spec then you'll need a Pressure Reducing Valve to knock the mains down to 2.5 bar and maybe a flow regulator t omatch the flow rate of the boiler.
Why did you call Viessmann Tech?
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Agile

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:41 pm Reply with quote

On another forum we read about a Viessmann approved installer having to be accompanied by the police when he went to reclaim the boiler he had wrongly fitted in case he attacked the home owner again.

We cannot assume this installer or the Viess service engineer know what they are doing.

We only have conflicting information available to us so are unable to come to any conclusion.

If anyone concerned wanted to telephone me and explain the situation then I could explain it here.

Tony
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joesoap1 (10 Feb 2011)
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:57 am Reply with quote

knuckles wrote:
Check your DHW flow rate, if it's higher than spec then you'll need a Pressure Reducing Valve to knock the mains down to 2.5 bar and maybe a flow regulator t omatch the flow rate of the boiler.
Why did you call Viessmann Tech?
Hi Everone, Thanks for replies, I,m no stranger to this site, hence my questions.Firtsly, I didn,t call the Engineer, the Installer did, he is Veissmans RGI, my mate is their Area sales manager/ex worcester/veismann engineer.I had a straight boiler swap because a certain breakdown company came out to change a heat exchange diaphragm, and 4 hours later boiler was kaput.main heat exchanger blown/electrics flooded, left with no boiler.Got Veissman RGI to do a flush and straight swap using original 22mm pipe which on old Vokera reduced again to 15mm, last 2 metres,,which he upgraded to 22mm.total pipe run from meterto boiler approx 20 metres, 2 bends.Did the job , Made,a superb job, new wireless roomstat, fine.old boiler was 24kw new one 30kw, he had it at hand for another job so that was to my benefit.no long wait.He,s been in the trade all his life and family too, good reccommendations.Only teething troubles with new wireles roomstat caused all the bother, it wasn,t shutting boiler down at night.After 3 visits, rgi decided to get Engineer in to check boiler, who did and gave me 2 sets of results.one for me with 18.5mb and 3 for Veissman stating 19.9mb.on mine he said 22kw max and said 28mm pipe reccommended, on Veissmans, fitted new Electrode.I know the reason for electrode, to save RGI 60 callout charge,Fair enough.water temp 40+ and said it should be 50+, sorted roomstat and off he went.all ok now, except the AIWP difference ;;and do I really require 28mm pipe? Do condensing boilers require larger pipes than my old combi to be efficient.? 2130 I paid for the job, no complaints, but this has left me rather bemused,RGI took working readings and said all was fine, no need to go 28mm.Engineer differs,WHY? Sorry it,s a saga,I thought Veissman were the bees knees?I,m in no different state than my old boiler, but 2130 lighter, and not getting best use of the new one. Should I pay X and upgrade pipework, or stay put? I really don,t think RGI want,s to do it;;;Thanks again all.


Last edited by joesoap1 on Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:46 am Reply with quote

Agile wrote:
The next pipe size above 22 mm is 28 mm!

But based on what you have said about having 19.9 mB at the boiler input the gas pipe size is adequate!

I would like to see proper gas pressure readings!

Tony
Hi Tony, if I can I will post them,if you tell me how.What if the second reading is the right one<18.5mb, should it still work correct, and working correct, does it mean I should get 30kw,not 22 as he stated?cheers .I,ll try and post his sheets,
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 8:52 am Reply with quote

mickyg wrote:
Every boiler on the UK market should work perfectly at 14mbar. Thats the benchmark they have to work to when designing boilers.
Hi Mickyg, doesn,t boiler size come into the equation?
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 9:25 am Reply with quote

joesoap1 wrote:
Agile wrote:
The next pipe size above 22 mm is 28 mm!

But based on what you have said about having 19.9 mB at the boiler input the gas pipe size is adequate!

I would like to see proper gas pressure readings!

Tony
Hi Tony, if I can I will post them,if you tell me how.What if the second reading is the right one<18.5mb, should it still work correct, and working correct, does it mean I should get 30kw,not 22 as he stated?cheers .I,ll try and post his sheets,
any hints on posting copy?[/img] icon_question.gif
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:37 pm Reply with quote

joesoap1 wrote:
joesoap1 wrote:
Agile wrote:
The next pipe size above 22 mm is 28 mm!

But based on what you have said about having 19.9 mB at the boiler input the gas pipe size is adequate!

I would like to see proper gas pressure readings!

Tony
Hi Tony, if I can I will post them,if you tell me how.What if the second reading is the right one<18.5mb, should it still work correct, and working correct, does it mean I should get 30kw,not 22 as he stated?cheers .I,ll try and post his sheets,
any hints on posting copy?[/img] icon_question.gif
I Hope this is right.
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Agile

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:09 pm Reply with quote

I am not questioning what has been put on the form!

What I am saying is that to assess the gas pipe we need the pressure at the meter and at the boiler when on full power.

If there is over 18mB at the boiler then if its working correctly then it will be able to deliver the rated 30 kW power output.

I am sorry that it seems to me that you have had two RGIs whose ability to understand whats required or going on is poor.

If the boiler is only taking 22 kW and the inlet pressure is 18.5 mB then at 30 kW it is going to be lower.

As I always say in these cases, if your installer is so good then why would he ever want to call the manufacturer's engineer out because he could assess the situation himself.

Its an unfortunate fact that about 20% of RGIs dont understand gas pressure aspects as they should. One person even posted above a statement which would have failed him in an assessment centre. ( Thats in theory as he would be asked to rethink and give the correct answer so he can be passed. Its that almost certain pass that creates a situation where so many RGIs dont understand gas pressures. )

What I can say is that the length of gas supply pipe sounds to me as if it should be partly of larger size for a 30 kW boiler.

I wonder why MM is so silent!

Tony
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MikeyGas

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:42 pm Reply with quote

To Joe Soap, did they gas rate the boiler with only the hot tap open? If so you can't do this on the viessmann 100 as it modulates down and thus gives you a figure of 22kw heat input.

I had a similar figure when I commissioned one a while back.

You have to set it to service mode with both dials set to max. You also need a hot tap open. Carry out gas rate. Should be getting around 27kw.

I queried this with Vmann as the boiler I fitted was pipe sized correctly from the meter and couldn't understand why I wasn't getting closer to 30kw. They said when testing in central heating mode that is all the boiler will produce.
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joesoap1 (10 Feb 2011)
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:31 pm Reply with quote

MikeyGas wrote:
To Joe Soap, did they gas rate the boiler with only the hot tap open? If so you can't do this on the viessmann 100 as it modulates down and thus gives you a figure of 22kw heat input.

I had a similar figure when I commissioned one a while back.

You have to set it to service mode with both dials set to max. You also need a hot tap open. Carry out gas rate. Should be getting around 27kw.

I queried this with Vmann as the boiler I fitted was pipe sized correctly from the meter and couldn't understand why I wasn't getting closer to 30kw. They said when testing in central heating mode that is all the boiler will produce.
Hi MickyG, thanks for reply,and Tony, much appreciated.The Engineer had the hot tap on full whilst running boiler.He checked the meter pressure and even boasted how he could do all his conversions using a mobile phone,he then checked it at boiler using flexi pipe, rubber, at top front of boiler.I do not know where he had the 2 knobs, max or not, but it ran for a while.He then checked hot water temp at tap using a thermometer, the RGI used that and a type of cup with outlets, I presume that measured flow rate? I did mention a possible pipe upgrade before he started the job, as, another RGI,who quoted the job months prior whilst doing another job for me said he would upgrade the pipe to 28mm if he fitted a 30kw worcester, which was my first choice when considering a change.The reason I opted for a veissman was hobsons choice.He was reccomended by my neighbour, a builder who has used him, and my neighbour was time servered gas fitter.This RGI only did Veissman, now, and had it ready for a job, which really suited me grand, and could do it immediatly, because my neighbour related my dillemma to him.I am absolutely happy with his work, it,s superb, I asked and got a 30kw boiler, and having researched on here, new veissman had a good reputation.I didn,t even haggle with the price, I needed a new boiler asap.I,m happy with it, but as an ex engineer, cannot understand how the RGI said the boiler was fine, getting approx 18.8mb and 45 hot waterat boiler, and 20mb at meter, a drop of 1.2, well within Veissmans regs., never mentioned kw, so I assumed 30kw was what I was getting.However, the Engineer, as you can see by his log, says different, even 18.5 and 19.9, it cannot be both.As the boiler was not working, obviously, he couldn,t measure readings till new one was installed, so couldn,t advise pipe size, would see what readings were when fitted, and 15mm pipe removed.I can cope with the boiler as it stands, because, I must be getting the same as my old one which I was very happy with. but I did expect a better and hotter hot water than old one, as it is 30kw, against 24kw.Temp knob on boiler has to be on max for shower and bath. As Tony claims,the pipe run would warrant 28mm because of the length, and don,t mind doing and paying for it if required.That,s the NUB.IS IT REQUIRED?? What benefit to me would I get by spending several hundred pounds more.The RGI hasn,t come back to me, so I presume he doesn,t want, or think I need to upgrade the pipe.Advice would be most grateful.Cheers, sorry it,s so long. icon_question.gif
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mysteryman

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:47 pm Reply with quote

I have waited to see what develops in this thread, because I do not understand what the alleged problem was, and some of the replies are drivel.

The facts of the matter are as follows:

The current Vitodens 100-W 30kW combi will raise 12 litres/minute of water through 35deg. If the incoming mains water is at 10C, you will get 45C out. If the incoming water is at 5C, you will only get 40C, just above blood heat. If you want a higher temperature, just reduce the flow rate a bit at the tap. Naturally, it will be better in summer. We have just had the coldest winter in living memory, and the water is very cold just now.

The gas pressure required is 17.5mb at the inlet to the multifunctional gas valve, and the supply pipe needs to be sized to suit. A qualified installer will know how to calculate the pipe size. The gas consumption will be 3 cubic metres/hour at full output.
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:12 am Reply with quote

mysteryman wrote:
I have waited to see what develops in this thread, because I do not understand what the alleged problem was, and some of the replies are drivel.

The facts of the matter are as follows:

The current Vitodens 100-W 30kW combi will raise 12 litres/minute of water through 35deg. If the incoming mains water is at 10C, you will get 45C out. If the incoming water is at 5C, you will only get 40C, just above blood heat. If you want a higher temperature, just reduce the flow rate a bit at the tap. Naturally, it will be better in summer. We have just had the coldest winter in living memory, and the water is very cold just now.

The gas pressure required is 17.5mb at the inlet to the multifunctional gas valve, and the supply pipe needs to be sized to suit. A qualified installer will know how to calculate the pipe size. The gas consumption will be 3 cubic metres/hour at full output.
Hi MM,Thanks for your reply.Since my post above, I have received a visit from my RGI,and The sales Manager from Veissman, who happens to be a personal friend, time served gas engineer, knows what he,s talking about.He did a thourough check of installation,pressures, cold water temp, hot water temp @ 12 litres pm, and got 43.5c, well within the manufacturers parameters.The boiler is working fine, not nescessary to upgrage the pipework, exactly as RGI stated at time of instalation, and asimilates to what you have just quoted.The Engineer who stated pipework needed upgrading, I,m afraid is in for a balling out.1, He gave me his personal card, both RGI and Manager wanted to know why? I presumed it was ID, alas, there is more to it than meets the eye.He shouldn,t have, my only contact should be through RGI or Veissman.he was here 15 mins, they were here an hour.The reason the RGI called the Engineer was because the boiler shut down 3 times @86.2c,thermal cut out,with no fault sign showing.He didn,t/couldn,t explain why, but neither could the others.The only reason I can deduce from all this is that the first Engineer was trying to get HIMSELF to upgrade the pipework unnescessarily, bypassing the original RGI.Apparently it seems it,s not the first time this Engineer has come under scrutiny.It,s certainly upset both the RGI and the Manager, as it,s casting doubts on RGI workmanship, which the Manager Et Al said was second to none before I hired him.I didn,t just get him from yellow pages,I contacted friends who had used him.All,s well that end well.I thank all for their input, specially Tony again.
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:28 am Reply with quote

joesoap1 wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
I have waited to see what develops in this thread, because I do not understand what the alleged problem was, and some of the replies are drivel.

The facts of the matter are as follows:

The current Vitodens 100-W 30kW combi will raise 12 litres/minute of water through 35deg. If the incoming mains water is at 10C, you will get 45C out. If the incoming water is at 5C, you will only get 40C, just above blood heat. If you want a higher temperature, just reduce the flow rate a bit at the tap. Naturally, it will be better in summer. We have just had the coldest winter in living memory, and the water is very cold just now.

The gas pressure required is 17.5mb at the inlet to the multifunctional gas valve, and the supply pipe needs to be sized to suit. A qualified installer will know how to calculate the pipe size. The gas consumption will be 3 cubic metres/hour at full output.
Hi MM,Thanks for your reply.Since my post above, I have received a visit from my RGI,and The sales Manager from Veissman, who happens to be a personal friend, time served gas engineer, knows what he,s talking about.He did a thourough check of installation,pressures, cold water temp, hot water temp @ 12 litres pm, and got 43.5c, well within the manufacturers parameters.The boiler is working fine, not nescessary to upgrage the pipework, exactly as RGI stated at time of instalation, and asimilates to what you have just quoted.The Engineer who stated pipework needed upgrading, I,m afraid is in for a balling out.1, He gave me his personal card, both RGI and Manager wanted to know why? I presumed it was ID, alas, there is more to it than meets the eye.He shouldn,t have, my only contact should be through RGI or Veissman.he was here 15 mins, they were here an hour.The reason the RGI called the Engineer was because the boiler shut down 3 times @86.2c,thermal cut out,with no fault sign showing.He didn,t/couldn,t explain why, but neither could the others.The only reason I can deduce from all this is that the first Engineer was trying to get HIMSELF to upgrade the pipework unnescessarily, bypassing the original RGI.Apparently it seems it,s not the first time this Engineer has come under scrutiny.It,s certainly upset both the RGI and the Manager, as it,s casting doubts on RGI workmanship, which the Manager Et Al said was second to none before I hired him.I didn,t just get him from yellow pages,I contacted friends who had used him.All,s well that end well.I thank all for their input, specially Tony again.
[img] This is the RGI original report when he installed the boiler.and commissioned it.[/img]
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joesoap1

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:48 am Reply with quote

[quote="joesoap1";p="1896821"][quote="joesoap1";p="1896768"]
mysteryman wrote:
I have waited to see what develops in this thread, because I do not understand what the alleged problem was, and some of the replies are drivel.

The facts of the matter are as follows:

The current Vitodens 100-W 30kW combi will raise 12 litres/minute of water through 35deg. If the incoming mains water is at 10C, you will get 45C out. If the incoming water is at 5C, you will only get 40C, just above blood heat. If you want a higher temperature, just reduce the flow rate a bit at the tap. Naturally, it will be better in summer. We have just had the coldest winter in living memory, and the water is very cold just now.

The gas pressure required is 17.5mb at the inlet to the multifunctional gas valve, and the supply pipe needs to be sized to suit. A qualified installer will know how to calculate the pipe size. The gas consumption will be 3 cubic metres/hour at full output.
Hi MM,Thanks for your reply.Since my post above, I have received a visit from my RGI,and The sales Manager from Veissman, who happens to be a personal friend, time served gas engineer, knows what he,s talking about.He did a thourough check of installation,pressures, cold water temp, hot water temp @ 12 litres pm, and got 43.5c, well within the manufacturers parameters.The boiler is working fine, not nescessary to upgrage the pipework, exactly as RGI stated at time of instalation, and asimilates to what you have just quoted.The Engineer who stated pipework needed upgrading, I,m afraid is in for a balling out.1, He gave me his personal card, both RGI and Manager wanted to know why? I presumed it was ID, alas, there is more to it than meets the eye.He shouldn,t have, my only contact should be through RGI or Veissman.he was here 15 mins, they were here an hour.The reason the RGI called the Engineer was because the boiler shut down 3 times @86.2c,thermal cut out,with no fault sign showing.He didn,t/couldn,t explain why, but neither could the others.The only reason I can deduce from all this is that the first Engineer was trying to get HIMSELF to upgrade the pipework unnescessarily, bypassing the original RGI.Apparently it seems it,s not the first time this Engineer has come under scrutiny.It,s certainly upset both the RGI and the Manager, as it,s casting doubts on RGI workmanship, which the Manager Et Al said was second to none before I hired him.I didn,t just get him from yellow pages,I contacted friends who had used him.All,s well that end well.I thank all for their input, specially Tony again
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mehran

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:23 am Reply with quote

does not look good on viessmann to have engineers running about giving out cards, stealing customers from RGI by claiming their work is sub standard...

think I may flag this for transam as he likes to hear about stuff like this
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