Yup.
One can, if one interposes "remove the battery, go for a cup of tea, replace the battery" between power off and power on, and then the first thing one does is to disable the function and clear the alarm.
PAT (testing)
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I'm sure that every one of your PCs had a case fan. It is usually integral with the PSU. Higher-performance PCs use additional fans. Leaving the side off means that the PSU fan (which is really a case exhaust fan) will suck cool air from the open side, without it passing over the motherboard.
Try monitoring the CPU and system temperatures both with and without the case side in place. I expect you'll be surprised.
I believe the ATX standard specified the direction of air flow from front to rear of the case, exhaust being via the PSU.
It bears the question though, if there are exposed fan blades spinning around should it pass a portable appliance test?
I believe this is the reason apple stopped making the big metal version of the mac pro available in Europe.
I believe this is the reason apple stopped making the big metal version of the mac pro available in Europe.
I meant 'case fans' other than the one in the PSU - as per the highlighted bits above in your quote from my post.
I have, a few times
CPU temperature has invariably been appreciably lower with the case side off. When there is a CPU fan (as mine always have had), that does not really surprise me, since the warm air blown from the heatsink by the CPU fan then has a very free path to the surrounding environment. What surprises me a little is that hard drive temperatures have also nearly always been a bit lower with the case side off - never appreciably higher when I have checked. However, those have just been occasional tests over the years so I cannot guarantee that results would always be the same (or, obviously, with different machines), particularly if the CPU was particularly busy!Kind Regards, John
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That makes some sense - but are PATests concerned about non-electrical issues?
Kind Regards, John
I haven't a clue, which is why I asked. I know nothing of PATesting, but wondered whether its scope was perhaps just limited to electrical issues.
Would you 'code' dangerously sharp edges on a metal CU/whatever when doing an EICR?
Kind Regards, John
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We had long discussions about non electrical danger found during testing. It would seem yes we could pass a grinder without the required guard but management agreed we should fail anything which presented a danger.
One problem was angle grinders which had the option on the switch to lock on so on removal of power and re-instating power they would auto re-start this is a fail yet found on many angle grinders. We had with bench grinder added active RCD protection not for the RCD but to stop re-start in the case of power cut.
552-01-02 / 552.1.2 stated 0.37 kW as lower limits for protection and in general any fan below that rating has not got enough power to really do any harm. We have many children's toys which spin including a spinning top which could cause harm but highly unlikely.
But as far as the side on a PC goes it's down to how the power supply is switched, many early PC's had on/off switches at the front which switched the incoming supply. Without checking the circuits very carefully one would often be unaware if there are any 230 volt switches within the casing so simple way around the problem is to fail without the side in place.
One problem I had was doing a risk assessment for using a PLC and I noted the casing holes were too large to comply with IP rating I think most PC power supplies would not be a problem but not all.
I remember at college being told I could not use my lap top as it had not been PAT tested. I wrote out a PAT test certificate stuck a PAT test sticker on it and returned to college asking who I needed to see to have it entered on the equipment register. It then transpired it did not need PAT testing it was just an excuse to stop me from using the lap top with programs installed which other students did not have access to.
I know when I worked for one firm workers personal equipment was a problem with us having no ability to quarantine it when found faulty and workers would take home one radio and replace with another swapping the PAT testing sticker and take a radio passed for use in an office and use it in a wet area. In the end all workers owned equipment was banned and the firm provided radios.
In other jobs we have to have the firms name on all equipment not because we don't want it stolen but so if found faulty it can be traced to correct firms equipment register.
In theroy there is no need for sticky labels with PASSED written on them a shop for example could be all tested on one day and no labels used. But it still needs the registers and this is where it all gets messy.
As to paper less I remember a problem using Robin software for PAT testing. We should enter our personal code before starting so everything we tested would have our name against it. However there was no way to remove the code when complete and some times people would forget and so wrong name would appear against the item tested. I realised using Visual Basic I could correct these errors but then it was pointed out should an item prove faulty visual basic could also be used to swap the testers name so the electronic records were no proof of who had done the testing. As a result at the end of testing the short sheets would be printed and signed by the person testing and stored in boxes marked with a "Not required after" date.
Again the electrical workshop was marked "Quarantined Area do not remove any equipment" all down to PAT testing so if some one took an item under repair without signing for it then they not the electrician would be responsible. I am sure many electrical workshops are the same with the registers for out of service equipment and returned to service equipment. It was started where I worked after some one took an extension lead which was waiting to be repaired and started to use it had an electric shock and when to hospital and HSE were automatically informed. We were told in no uncertain terms we needed that "Quarantined Area" sign. This is why the electricians workshop often has a cage around it separating it from rest of the workshop.
I suppose we should really have "Quarantined Area" area written on the electricians van as well.
But the main point is PAT testing requires records to be kept and to keep these records for personal equipment is a whole bag of worms. Remember as soon as any electrical item is repaired it needs PAT testing before it is returned to service. Be it swap the 13A plug or any other repair. How can any one police DIY repairs on personal equipment?
This was raised when working for GEC Large Steam Turbines where management banned any personal equipment. How can a company be responsible for a hammer stale not braking if they don't source it?
One problem was angle grinders which had the option on the switch to lock on so on removal of power and re-instating power they would auto re-start this is a fail yet found on many angle grinders. We had with bench grinder added active RCD protection not for the RCD but to stop re-start in the case of power cut.
552-01-02 / 552.1.2 stated 0.37 kW as lower limits for protection and in general any fan below that rating has not got enough power to really do any harm. We have many children's toys which spin including a spinning top which could cause harm but highly unlikely.
But as far as the side on a PC goes it's down to how the power supply is switched, many early PC's had on/off switches at the front which switched the incoming supply. Without checking the circuits very carefully one would often be unaware if there are any 230 volt switches within the casing so simple way around the problem is to fail without the side in place.
One problem I had was doing a risk assessment for using a PLC and I noted the casing holes were too large to comply with IP rating I think most PC power supplies would not be a problem but not all.
I remember at college being told I could not use my lap top as it had not been PAT tested. I wrote out a PAT test certificate stuck a PAT test sticker on it and returned to college asking who I needed to see to have it entered on the equipment register. It then transpired it did not need PAT testing it was just an excuse to stop me from using the lap top with programs installed which other students did not have access to.
I know when I worked for one firm workers personal equipment was a problem with us having no ability to quarantine it when found faulty and workers would take home one radio and replace with another swapping the PAT testing sticker and take a radio passed for use in an office and use it in a wet area. In the end all workers owned equipment was banned and the firm provided radios.
In other jobs we have to have the firms name on all equipment not because we don't want it stolen but so if found faulty it can be traced to correct firms equipment register.
In theroy there is no need for sticky labels with PASSED written on them a shop for example could be all tested on one day and no labels used. But it still needs the registers and this is where it all gets messy.
As to paper less I remember a problem using Robin software for PAT testing. We should enter our personal code before starting so everything we tested would have our name against it. However there was no way to remove the code when complete and some times people would forget and so wrong name would appear against the item tested. I realised using Visual Basic I could correct these errors but then it was pointed out should an item prove faulty visual basic could also be used to swap the testers name so the electronic records were no proof of who had done the testing. As a result at the end of testing the short sheets would be printed and signed by the person testing and stored in boxes marked with a "Not required after" date.
Again the electrical workshop was marked "Quarantined Area do not remove any equipment" all down to PAT testing so if some one took an item under repair without signing for it then they not the electrician would be responsible. I am sure many electrical workshops are the same with the registers for out of service equipment and returned to service equipment. It was started where I worked after some one took an extension lead which was waiting to be repaired and started to use it had an electric shock and when to hospital and HSE were automatically informed. We were told in no uncertain terms we needed that "Quarantined Area" sign. This is why the electricians workshop often has a cage around it separating it from rest of the workshop.
I suppose we should really have "Quarantined Area" area written on the electricians van as well.
But the main point is PAT testing requires records to be kept and to keep these records for personal equipment is a whole bag of worms. Remember as soon as any electrical item is repaired it needs PAT testing before it is returned to service. Be it swap the 13A plug or any other repair. How can any one police DIY repairs on personal equipment?
This was raised when working for GEC Large Steam Turbines where management banned any personal equipment. How can a company be responsible for a hammer stale not braking if they don't source it?
Indeed - but you are talking about a very long time ago (in IT terms), prior to the days of ATX power supplies. Even before that, it was quite common to have a long plastic rod from the front panel button which operated an (enclosed) mains switch in the PSU. Anyone who knows anything about computers has only got to look and confirm that it is an ATX PSU to understand that there is no exposed 230V.
Kind Regards, John
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I did say early, but electricians PAT test computers not IT technicians, so the electrician can see loads of cables with no idea which are 24 volt DC and which are 230 AC and unless he is 100% sure there are no 230 volt live parts he has to play safe.
Having panels with thumb screws or other retaining devices not requiring a tool would show to most that there were no low voltage components which could be accessed and it is safe to remove the panel. It it requires a screw driver then one would auto assume live low voltage parts.
It has been talked about before unless the
If one upsets the tester it is very easy for him to fail a PC. So why upset him. Just put on the side at least until tested.
You may well be right, but it's not really satisfactory that something could fail a PAT because of the ignornace of the tester.
Putting on my Devil's Advocate hat, that surely would be an inappropriate assumption which would undermine the whole idea of a PAT? Is not one of the purposes of a PAT to identify situations (and consequentially fail the item) in which it is possible to gain access to live (ELV) parts without use of a tool?
Although that one at least errs on the side of safety, you would not have to look too far to find exceptions. Indeed, in context, there are a lot of ('ATX') PCs around that require undoing of a screw or three (with a tool) to get the side panel off (I have several, albeit not very young!), yet they have no exposed LV parts inside. The same goes for a lot of consumer electronics products.
Kind Regards, John
I could, or just knock the burrs off with a file etc.
PATesting is essentially passing it as safe and fit for use at that moment in time. One of the most important parts of a PATest is the visual which is done prior to the electrical tests which covers ensuring it is safe for use i.e. not missing guards, checking for damage, correctly fused, suitable for environment and so on.
I'm pretty sure my employer wouldn't be too impressed if I passed a desk fan with missing guards so you could stick your hand into the spinning fan blades!
Thanks for clarifying. That all makes sense but, as I said, I didn't know whether or not the scope of a PAT was ('bureaucratically') limited to electrical issues. From what you say, it isn't.
Kind Regards, John
Happens a lot with respect to the "leakage current" test John.
I don't doubt that it does - but I don't think that makes it any more satisfactory, do you?
Kind Regards, John
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