nanny state - don't play with electrickery

[dingbat]

Before everybody gets this all out of proportion, it was about time the industry was regulated. On a regular basis I come across frankly dangerous installations supposedly carried out by professionals. And of course there are all those other trades who regularly do a bit of electrical work without the necessary knowledge or equipment. I'm not suggesting for one minute that any honest tradesman would deliberately carry out dangerous work, just that (as with all trades) there is more to it than meets the untrained eye.

I actually think that including electrical work in the Building Regulations makes a lot of sense and the only things that are 'wrong' with it are the confusing ways in which notifiable and non-notifiable work are defined, the multiplicity of recognised self-certification schemes and the lack of general publicity. But all this will sort itself out in time; the public will eventually come to recognise certain organisations and the others will merge or fold. Eventually, those who employ electricians will (in the main) choose registered electricians as a matter of course, just as they employ CORGI registered gas installers.

Nobody is outlawing DIY work - simply bringing it under a degree of control. Most homes' installations have been bu**ered about with to some degree and many are just dreadful. A lot of this is to do with DIY-ers who don't know what they are doing and don't ask questions. Because the majority of the cabling is concealed, bodgers have been getting away with it up until now and nobody ever seems to take seriously the advice of many surveyors to get a specialist report on domestic services. How would you feel when the home you've just bought turns out to have a dangerous mess of potentially lethal electrci spaghetti, covered up with laminate flooring, pretty lights and shiny switchplates?

And back once more to the DIY-ers and other trades. I have many times been told by such people that they know exactly what they are doing and then I've seen the results. Some have been fine, most have been far from it.

If you feel you understand and have the necessary skills then notify LABC and get on with the job. If you're not sure, then call in somebody who does know what to do. If you're really mad about it then continue to trade illegally, or write to your MP, or bury your DIY under old colours and laminate floors and hope you don't get found out. But for pity's sake stop whinging on and on about it on these forums. It's here, it's the law and it won't be going away.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Many new accessories are being date coded at manufacture, i.e. 03/07/14 is stamped on my Wickes bathroom heater FCU mounting box, meaning 14th July 2003.

And on my MK Loft Socket, it says (08/2002) , August 2002 on the back, so it will not be long before the inspectors can easily detect new wiring work.

Unless you've f****d-up big time, nobody is going to spend public money taking sockets off walls to see if you've been a naughty boy.

 

[Paul_C]

Out of interest does anyone know if other countries have any regs similar to part p. ?

The U.S. has electrical permits and inspections, but like most things these are determined at a state/county/city level, so some places might require a permit and inspection for almost all work while others have no requirements at all as far as DIY work is concerned.

Canada also has permit and inspection arrangements again varying from one province to another and one local area to another.

Australia seems to have some of the strictest rules going, especially in Queensland. The rules in the latter make it illegal for anyone but an qualified, registered electrician to do any electrical work in a home at all.

 

[kevplumb]

the way i see it make it all notifiable or leave it alone its the grey areas that cause the problems

 

[plugwash]

Australia seems to have some of the strictest rules going, especially in Queensland. The rules in the latter make it illegal for anyone but an qualified, registered electrician to do any electrical work in a home at all.

and im pretty sure i read that they have a much higher electrical death rate than we do.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

A comparison of Australia and New Zealand is instructive. These two countries use the same connectors, same voltages, same earthing methods and have the same basic regulations.

Australian regulations are by far the tightest - officially you can't even buy a mains plug or a bulb holder without showing a qualification card. In New Zealand, where the electrical techniques are similar, the regs are very more relaxed,

In Australia all fixed wiring has to be done by a registered installer, while in New Zealand most DIY acts are allowed, but newly installed circuits must be inspected by a qualified sparks prior to connection. In 8 out of 10 of the 10 years to 2003, New Zealand has had the lower overall fatality rate from electricity in the home, although accidents from fixed installations are slightly fewer in Australia.

I agree, regulation has worked in one way, Australia's FIXED wiring is indeed safer, but on average between 3 and 4 times more people are dying each year from flexible cables and portable appliances, than in NZ, thus completely outweighing the benefits. (In the UK already general between 5 and 10 times more deaths occur from extension leads and flexes than from fixed wiring)

 

[nstreet]

Whilst I agree in part with the new regs, I feel they do penalise the DIY'er who does know what he is doing. I have an OND in elec/electrical eng. I have a copy of the wiring regs 16th ed. and have done a number of installations in my homes only, not others, all of which have been inspected by NICEIC electricians and passed with no problems. But the fees for inspection etc will then make DIY expensive again and pointless.

If there are going to be long delays between the work and inspection this could also cause some probelms. e.g install new ring etc plaster over and make good, decorate. Six months later Mr B. I. somes along and says he is not happy have to start again. Huge cost.

OK so I could go for the self cert scheme, but for the odd project I am not going to pay the £400 annual registration. Instead I will have to pay Mr Registered Spark probably £50ph plus to do the installation for me.

It would be nice if there was some way the competent DIY'er could do a short course and exam to register himself for part p in his own home. I dont know what sort of training the inspectors will go through or their background but is it possible that some DIY'ers may be more competent than them?

One last observation, If people are unable to run power to their sheds any longer its quite possible that the number of accidents deaths could increase as Joe Bloggs will run temporary extension leads to the garage and shed, left out in all weathers waiting for Mrs Bloggs to cut it with the electric mower, as he doesn't want the added costs.

 

[Adam_151]

My local paper said the building control fee would be £75, i've seen hugely higher fees reported on various forums, I expect it would vary a bit depedning on where you are, but could it be, that there is a bit of scaremongering going on by people?,

Oh btw, I'm in lincolnshire, east midlands, where inccidentally, the REC supply and fit isolaters free of charge, maybe we are just lucky...

 

[plugwash]

I agree, regulation has worked in one way, Australia's FIXED wiring is indeed safer, but on average between 3 and 4 times more people are dying each year from flexible cables and portable appliances, than in NZ, thus completely outweighing the benefits. (In the UK already general between 5 and 10 times more deaths occur from extension leads and flexes than from fixed wiring)

This in a nutyshell is the problem with regulating the installation of fixed wiring

it encourages use of temporary soloutions (e.g. exention leads) on a permanent basis.

a reasonablly well installed spur with the cable out of harms way is FAR safer than an extention lead running on the floor where it can get tripped over and damaged.

there is also the question of whether idiots should be allowed to remove themselves from the gene pool but thats another issue.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If there are going to be long delays between the work and inspection this could also cause some probelms. e.g install new ring etc plaster over and make good, decorate. Six months later Mr B. I. somes along and says he is not happy have to start again. Huge cost.

You raise an interesting point - not about the delay, because AIUI they will inspect at first and second fix, but about "not happy".

Take a look at the actual law (Not the Part P Approved Document): http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2004/20043210.htm

Tell me where it defines what the results of test & inspections have to be, and what LABC can do if they are "not happy".

It would be nice if there was some way the competent DIY'er could do a short course and exam to register himself for part p in his own home. I dont know what sort of training the inspectors will go through or their background but is it possible that some DIY'ers may be more competent than them?

Frankly I see no reason why DIY-ers should expect to be allowed to have a lower standard of knowledge or skills. The technical requirements should be the same as for any Competent Person scheme. What isn't needed is the mandatory PLI and guarantees. If a scheme operator were to drop those for "DIY Competent Person" I'd consider registering. There would also need to be a readily accessible supply of test equipment for hire for most people.

 

[AdamW]

I am, in theory, for the scheme. I would like to be able to buy a house knowing that the electrics SHOULD be safe, and that if I uncover any bu**ering about (dated accessories, as mentioned before?) that hasn't been disclosed, I can shout at the person who sold me the house. Of course, hearing about some of the dreadful work people have uncovered then I will certainly get a full survey including electrics and plumbing.

Then there is also the feeling of pride when one knows that the DIY one has completed meets all the regs. Now we will have a nice piece of paper that we can file away, proving that we have done the job correctly, so far as the inspector can test.

However... what about the fee? Is this £75 a flat fee? If I do a job that barely goes over the notification threshold, and would take an inspector 5 minutes to have a look at and go "Yup, s'alright", will that cost the same to inspect as if I do a full rewire? If so, it doesn't really seem fair to me!

I am thinking of replacing my kitchen, which will involve adding a couple of sockets to an existing circuit. Because it is in a kitchen, I need to notify BC. So, I will be paying about £10 in parts, £0 in labour, £75 for inspection. The guy will come along, hook up his meter, give it a thumbs up and be gone before I can switch the circuit on and offer a cup of tea.

Now, I know that some wally will go and install a socket in a kitchen sink or something, but why not just introduce some zones into the kitchen (like bathroom zones)? Heck, those wallys won't pay attention but they probably won't bother with BCO's either. Just because I am doing work on my kitchen as opposed to my living room doesn't mean I will be strapping on my dunce cap before starting! The close proximity of cutlery doesn't mean I will abandon my tools and attempt to tighten terminal screws with a spatula!

 

[nstreet]

I think the cost would have to come down for the DIY'er also. There aren't many of us can afford £400 pa to be registerd so that we can do the odd large job once in a blue moon. After all I only have one garage that I want to connect up, one fish pond and once I have a new circuit or two in the house thats about it.

The 2 examples of previous work may be an issue. You wouldn't be able to put a ring in without having it inspected and the additional costs to go with it. In your first year you could be looking at some £800 odd pounds to be registerd and have your two examples inspected.

It would be nice if you could do it as a college type exam where you have to install perhaps a cu, 2 rings, lighting etc, test it and be assesed on that work.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am thinking of replacing my kitchen, which will involve adding a couple of sockets to an existing circuit. Because it is in a kitchen, I need to notify BC.

It's not unreasonable for people to take photos of before & after with projects like that.

Why not fix the sockets to the wall now, and take photos of the room, so that in the million-to-one chance that you have to, you can "prove" that they were already there.

 

[AdamW]

I like it!

 

[Paul_C]

However... what about the fee? Is this £75 a flat fee?

So it would appear. I just received word from my local building control dept. that they've decided upon the inspection fee: £60 plus VAT for any works up to a value of £20,000, which I think will cover just about any domestic wiring for all practical purposes.

So, I will be paying about £10 in parts, £0 in labour, £75 for inspection.

That's what they seem to be suggesting. Nobody is my immediate area is going to accept that. We're already fuming about the extortionate increases in council tax in the last few years -- The idea that DIYers will pay£70.50 council fees for a job which takes £10 of DIY materials is quite absurd.