No new Nest Thermostats for Europe?

[RandomGrinch]

We've been waiting a good while now, after the introduction of the 4th gen stat, to see if it would make its way over to this side of the pond.
Now it appears that will not happen.
On top of that, support for the older 1st and 2nd generation stats also looks set to be dropped; losing internet connectivity and app control.

Personally, I think it's a shame. I have a 2nd gen Nest, and like the Nest eco-system.
Hopefully there will be some activity on the hacker scene, that can bring back some lost functionality.

I haven't yet found the official information from Google...

Google is killing software support for early Nest Thermostats

No more controlling these “smart” thermostats from a phone.

www.theverge.com

Old Nest thermostats are about to become dumb: What you need to know

Google is going to purposefully break old Nest thermostats. Here's how to find out if you own one and what will happen if you do.

www.androidauthority.com

So long Nest, and thanks for all the warmth!

 

[CountryFan]

I haven’t read the articles but do we know why they’re stopping them? Personally I think for the cost it’s a bit of a rip off, but probably because I’m old school and a tight arse!

 

[RandomGrinch]

but do we know why they’re stopping them?

I found the Google source - according to them...

Apparently, we're unique!

Support changes to our earliest generation Nest Learning Thermostats

Hi all, Fourteen years ago we introduced the Nest Learning Thermostat, which revolutionized the entire smart home industry. Since then we’ve launched multiple generations of this iconic device designed to help you save energy and money, including the Nest Learning Thermostat (4th gen), our...

www.googlenestcommunity.com

 

[ericmark]

Well, the old Gen 3 was a bit of a failure. I have one, it was claimed when I bought it, that it would work with Energenie MiHome TRV heads, and in a way it did, using the Energenie app you could set both the wall thermostat and the TRV, but the TRV failed to follow the wall thermostat with a programmed change, and that is the wrong way around anyway.

The temperature sensors released for the USA market may have worked, it seems the idea was if any room with a sensor in was cold, then the central heating would fire up, but they were not released for Europe.

Apart from the failure to control multi-rooms, (not required so much with hot air heating) the other functions did not work too well either. I had the geo-fencing set up, what is wanted is to set it so x miles from home heating starts, if really clever (smart) then as one approached home it would raise the temperature in stages, what actually happened was when it detected your phone was using the local cell to the house, it turned heating from eco setting to comfort setting, in my case 17ºC was eco setting and 20ºC was comfort setting.

It came to a head when the local mast was taken out in high winds, and central heating went to eco setting, until the thermostat was approached, when it's built in PIR would turn it to comfort setting, so each time we looked at the thermostat it said heating was on, but soon after it would drop to eco setting, it was not until I looked at it with PC did I realised what was going on. And geo-fencing was turned off.

As to learning, if you had seen the schedule it auto produced, one would wonder what it was trying to do. Our thermostat was in the hall, no single room is ideal, the living room has open fire, and patio doors, but internal doors would, sometimes be left open, and sometimes closed, so there were drafts in the hall, which messed it up, trying to auto produce a schedule.

On the plus side, had our boiler been OpenTherm Nest may have worked better, and it allowed me to use two wires to both power the thermostat, and to send info from the thermostat to the base. And it auto lit up when I approached so I could see settings.

However, the wireless option, used a USB power supply, which resulted in if there is a loss of power where it is plugged in, it will after a short time, stop working as its battery goes flat, so the boiler is supplied from the UPS, but will stop working, as the thermostat is not either battery powered or supplied from same supply as boiler.

There will be homes where it would work, my old house for example with open plan, but it did not just require an up-grade, it required a full rebuild to work in multiple homes. OK, maybe my house was simply too large for it? But I still use it to turn on domestic hot water if required, but although if can fire up the boiler for central heating, now the Wiser thermostat runs in parallel to it, allowing multi wall thermostats, or TRV linked, so it does a far better job.

So Nest has Tado, Wiser, EvoHome, and Hive as competition, even Hive now has OpenTherm, and EvoHome I am sure came out before Nest, maybe wrong? So the Nest thermostat would need to start from scratch, and a quick google, smart thermostats can be got today for £30, this is their competitor, as they don't connect to a TRV, I like Nest, I have Nest Mini's all around the house, they provide entertainment and control lights and heating, including the Wiser controlled heating, but the Nest wall thermostat is just way overpriced for what it does.

I like the simplicity of it, simply turn the dial, and the way it lights up as I approach it, and that it will work with PC as well as phone, without any emulator, and also the volt free contacts in the hub, although a bit tight, but I can actually put my meter probes on the terminals to see what is going on, with Wiser, I have to remove hub to access terminals, so can't test at hub. So yes, Nest has some good points. And I will admit the Wiser app is very slow loading on the phone.

And Nest-e is the only wireless thermostat which has battery power base. But the idea today is only heat as and when required, and Nest does not allow that.

 

[Munroast]

don't get involved with anything to do with the USA - may as well be dealing with some **** hole state in Africa

Buy European

 

[ChrisJP]

I've never understood why people want to control their heating themostats from a smartphone. Sure you can do it when you're away from the house, but why would you want to do that? When you're in the house, it's hardly a big trouble to walk over to wherever the thermostat is located to alter it.

 

[Munroast]

I've never understood why people want to control their heating themostats from a smartphone. Sure you can do it when you're away from the house, but why would you want to do that? When you're in the house, it's hardly a big trouble to walk over to wherever the thermostat is located to alter it.

because folk are mental when it comes to these phones - no kidding I was talking to a woman a few days ago, her phone went peep which immediately got her 100% attention, staring at it scrolling up and down - I asked if everything was OK, shes said her washing machine had started its last cycle ! Her washing machine is coupled to her phone - folk are becoming insane

 

[CountryFan]

because folk are mental when it comes to these phones— folk are becoming insane

Absolutely. I see more and more people driving and have their phone in their hands and look at the phone, look at the road and sometimes using the phone, eg texting. Same as when I’m sat at traffic lights, see people reaching for their phones. It’s becoming an obsession imo.

 

[ChrisJP]

because folk are mental when it comes to these phones - no kidding I was talking to a woman a few days ago, her phone went peep which immediately got her 100% attention, staring at it scrolling up and down - I asked if everything was OK, shes said her washing machine had started its last cycle ! Her washing machine is coupled to her phone - folk are becoming insane

Running a washing machine when you're not in the house is even madder than altering a thermostat setting when you're not there. Washing machines can, and do, spring leaks and flood the kitchen and then the house if you're not there to turn off the water.

 

[Why Not Indeed]

until the thermostat was approached, when it's built in PIR would turn it to comfort setting, so each time we looked at the thermostat it said heating was on, but soon after it would drop to eco setting, it was not until I looked at it with PC did I realised what was going on

That's hilarious.

 

[ericmark]

I've never understood why people want to control their heating themostats from a smartphone.

You can do it before getting out of bed, or chair, but not with smartphone, but voice commands.

Running a washing machine when you're not in the house is even madder than altering a thermostat setting when you're not there.

Best time, it may go on fire, don't want it doing that while you're in the house.

That's hilarious.

It is now, but not at the time.

But seriously, Nest was never a good thermostat. Their Mini speakers are OK, but the thermostat I was conned into buying as I thought it would link with my TRV heads.

But it does seem there are two very different ways to control house temperature.
1) Keep all rooms at a steady temperature 24/7.
2) Only heat rooms in use, while they are in use.
Much depends on the heat retention of the home, if the home only losses 2ºC in 8 hours, and is two up/two down, then may as well keep a steady temperature. But with a larger home, with rooms not used daily, and where each room can lose 4ºC or more over 8 hours, then having programmable TRV's makes sense.

I am undecided as to programmable TRV linked, or having a separate wall thermostat. Looking at the diagram the thermostat needs to be on the opposite wall to the radiator, and the area needs to be free for the air to circulate, this clearly does not happen in my hall where the thermostat is two doors closer to the centre of house to radiator with TRV, and there is a staircase, which will likely mean air will never drop back down the opposite wall due to the landing.

But in the main it's not the internet or any other connection, 5 of mine are Bluetooth, but it is the silly *123456 on the mechanical TRV heads, so one has two controls, the TRV and the lock shield valve, and nothing to show which needs adjusting. If TRV is set to 20ºC, and it is reporting 22ºC, then it is clear the lock shield needs closing a tad, but set to 2½ and room at 22ºC, how do you know which one to adjust?

The living room and wife's bedroom were often cold, the hall was ample temperature, so in theory should turn the hall radiators down, however in practice there are hot and cold drafts from the kitchen, living room, dinning room, and shower room, and also heat raising to the 4 bedrooms and bathroom. So there was no fixed relationship between the hall, and other rooms in the house, it all depended on what doors were left open or closed.

So the only way is to monitor multi-rooms, and most systems one way or another allow that. Nest is the odd one out, in only monitoring one room. OK you could fit a load of base units in parallel, each one linked to a single wall thermostat, but systems like wiser allow I think 9 wall thermostats, linked to one base unit.

I do use the phone to turn on cooling, but this is because the bottle that collects the condensate, will overflow if the AC is on for too long, so I only turn it on just before setting off home. Would be better to drill a hole in the wall and direct condensate outside.

I was not upset when they stopped making the thermostats with a bead of mercury in a tube, as they were not that good, and in the same way, will not miss Nest. Compared with other wall thermostats of around the same price, it is a bit useless.

 

[RandomGrinch]

I've never understood why people want to control their heating themostats from a smartphone. Sure you can do it when you're away from the house, but why would you want to do that?

It may not suit everyone, but if the facility is there, why not use it?

Personally, on a late November day coming home with a new born, after staying an unexpected extra few days in the ward; it was pretty reassuring being able to turn the heating on remotely and knowing it was at the correct temperature before we got in.
Also, perhaps lazily, turning the heating up, or down from the bed, is quite common for us.

You also seem to be missing another benefit of a phone app. It can offer an accessible and simple to use GUI for scheduling heating and setting temperatures. A few swipes on the phone can take care of schedule that saves messing around with pins on a dial, or many button pushes on a 5/2 programmer.

As has been mentioned on a few posts here previously; remote app control of thermostats is a very useful feature to have, for those who own holiday lets.

 

[ericmark]

I have to agree with @RandomGrinch there seems to be moves to change central heating, but for me, central heating means one heat producing device, and a system to direct that heat to where wanted.

I have never considered night storage radiators as central heating, there was nothing central about them.

So we are seeing where heat pumps need to heat the whole house, I have not worked out why, but with nearly any other sort of central heating, we work on the only heat when required for as long as required, so the key phrase is "Recovery time" how long it takes from the point where you realise a room needs heating, to when the room is up to temperature required.

So I have a 20 kW boiler, and for that to heat the whole house from 5ºC to 20ºC would take a long time, possibly over a day. Therefore, the only way is to have a schedule so important rooms heated first, or never let the house cool. And running costs, with a schedule, is cheaper as to keeping all rooms warm.

In practice, a bit of a mixture. And more down to near enough. So yes, I should be able to walk up to the TRV head and adjust it, but in practice, there is a settee in front of it, and would need to be a contortionist, and use mirrors to see the settings, so far easier to adjust with an app other one behind a table again can control with an app. The latter one should have worked with the Nest thermostat, but it doesn't, the ones shown are Wi-Fi, also use Bluetooth which were only £15 each in 2019 before Brexit, why use mechanical when a programmable one is so cheap? I have one linked TRV head, this one can actually cause the boiler to fire up. Plus, the two wall thermostats Nest Gen 3 in the hall, and Wiser in the living room. Had the Nest thermostat done what it said, I would not have needed the Wiser thermostats. But the 10 TRV heads in main house are all programmable in some way. So I can set a sequence of events.

The kitchen will be the first room to use when I get home, then dinning room, finally living room until ready to retire, just a 5-minute gap between the radiators will mean the kitchen warms up ½ hour earlier, as the radiator gets hot before the dinning room, and again the dinning room also gets hot faster due to delaying the living room.

Much over 10 minutes delay, and the boiler will start to cycle prematurely, so there is a balance. And due to Nest not doing as it said, my heating has gradually evolved, rather than getting it right first time.

As to geo-fencing, that was a complete flop. It would need a building management system, to trigger devices at the right distance from the home in sequence. The last item would be to turn on lights. But the Nest geo-fencing gives very little control, one is nearly home before the heating starts.

So simple times I have found work better.

But there is that much wrong with the Nest Gen 3 EU thermostat, it would be basically scrap it and start again. And the likes of Wiser are so much ahead, to be able to produce a competitive product now, and to try and get rid of the bad name they have got over the years, specially when competing with some of the Chinese stuff, the only option really is to buy out another firm like Google did with Nest. But this time not destroy it in the process.