why is loss of freedom of movement in eu seen as a big deal

[Justin Passing]

The details if you look around in that Moneyweek link suggest many old duffers aren't too badly off, especially the ones about to retire.
Pension pot plus property means a lot are in the 300 - 500k area.
The house prices rises of recent decades have meant that that generation have a valuable parents' home, perhaps worth a few hundred k and clear of the mortgage which is a substantial amount even when split between (say 2) kids in their 60's. IHT starts high enough not to hurt too much..
I know OF a few people who have either rented their house out to support their living abroad, or sold up. invested the money at well above inflation and have enough to go live somewhere cheap.
Indonesian islands are quite popular, you can employ house-people for buttons and have a "special massage" whenever you want.
Spanish Islands too, Menorca etc.

I have looked into it a bit - I could easily take pension & benefits out of the country, have investments elsewhere (ie US shares), come back for free NHS etc.
I know a couple who somehow manage to Air-BnB the house except for when they come back to live in it. Officially, that's their home.

Pensioners? Who'd 'ave em? Blight on society.

Rachel could do a lot to keep the solvent old duffers here.

 

[King Billy]

...
I know OF a few people

We're talking of thousands, not the odd few.

Rachel could do a lot to keep the solvent old duffers here.

Like improve the climate?

Or perhaps you were thinking of lower national wage for the servants? I don't think that's a Labour initiative.

 

[motorbiking]

The details if you look around in that Moneyweek link suggest many old duffers aren't too badly off, especially the ones about to retire.
Pension pot plus property means a lot are in the 300 - 500k area.
The house prices rises of recent decades have meant that that generation have a valuable parents' home, perhaps worth a few hundred k and clear of the mortgage which is a substantial amount even when split between (say 2) kids in their 60's. IHT starts high enough not to hurt too much..
I know OF a few people who have either rented their house out to support their living abroad, or sold up. invested the money at well above inflation and have enough to go live somewhere cheap.
Indonesian islands are quite popular, you can employ house-people for buttons and have a "special massage" whenever you want.
Spanish Islands too, Menorca etc.

I have looked into it a bit - I could easily take pension & benefits out of the country, have investments elsewhere (ie US shares), come back for free NHS etc.
I know a couple who somehow manage to Air-BnB the house except for when they come back to live in it. Officially, that's their home.

Pensioners? Who'd 'ave em? Blight on society.

Rachel could do a lot to keep the solvent old duffers here.

The CGT tax changes, particularly on those who are basic rate payers was a real sting. Quite clearly an attack on those who self fund early retirement. There are plenty of EU countries with zero rate on CGT.

 

[Mottie]

Like improve the climate?

No need for Rachel to help with that. We're getting hotter summers and warmer winters.

 

[motorbiking]

Soon the south of England will be better for growing wine than France.

 

[King Billy]

The CGT tax changes, particularly on those who are basic rate payers was a real sting. Quite clearly an attack on those who self fund early retirement. There are plenty of EU countries with zero rate on CGT.

Of the four most popular retirement destinations, only Greece has some zero rated CGT, depending on the specific class of personal investment.
But Greece is the least favourable of the four most popular destinations.

 

[King Billy]

Soon the south of England will be better for growing wine than France.

A big tax windfall for Rachel. I bet she'll drink to that.

The tax on wine produced in England is significantly higher than on wine produced in France. Because the UK applies alcohol duty by the bottle based on alcohol strength, tax on a bottle of English wine is roughly £2.60 to over £3.30, whereas France charges a negligible agricultural excise duty of about 3p per bottle.

Tax that would otherwise have gone to France. But I suspect France can afford it, as the worlds largest wine producer.

 

[Mottie]

Soon the south of England will be better for growing wine than France.

You may laugh but three people over my allotment are growing grapes.

 

[Mottie]

But I suspect France can afford it, as the world’s largest wine producer.

Italy.

 

[Justin Passing]

There are plenty of EU countries with zero rate on CGT.

I checked a couple of countries previously, who taxed capital gains the same as income tax. I'll get a list.

We're talking of thousands, not the odd few.

# me: to keep well-off pensioners here
Like improve the climate?

Or perhaps you were thinking of lower national wage for the servants? I don't think that's a Labour initiative.

I think
1) pensioners are often a lot better off than you imagine,
2) I don't match your straw man.


As I've moved into old age, I've only noticed the people I know, get better off. It's the world my bit of the population Venn diagram lives in.
You have to be careful how large that oval is, when you speak of "pensioners". No, most pensioners can't afford to live abroad, but the ones who have benefitted from tax-free ISAs, inheritances from the property owning generation, increased availability of financial control, have a few hundred grand to use.

Aunty Rache would do well to help keep the dosh in the UK, and doing it some good, too, like being invested in UK industry (such as exists).
But why should they/we keep it here? Buying UK shares is taxed, returns have been better abroad, in either Europe, US or the Far East.
There is zero incentive to keep the money , or the body, here.

There are a few investable companies in the UK, but not enough to make a significant part of a portfolio. Here, listing by 6 month returns, you mostly find mining companies, or holders of foreign assets, such as Polar Capital Trust or Scottish Mortgage Trust. See at https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/stock-market-summary/ftse-100/performance

So with the AVERAGE over half a million, the the 25% of the population over 60, is well off overall.
Those people own 55% of the housing wealth, approx £3,840,000,000,000 . (3.84 trillion quid)

The proportion of pensioners who could move abroad if they sold their house, or used it for renting, is not "a few compared with thousands".
I suspect they could do it on say £350k, which pushes the 25% (at 575k) figure up , maybe to 35-40%.

Much of the money is stuck in the home they live in, no use to anyone. While, by the way, they still cost the state money to keep alive.

2) Why would I want to see a lower national wage for the servants? Perhaps that suits a picture you want to draw of me so you can stick pins in it?

At the moment, the lower half of all earners only pay about 9% of the treasury take of tax. Those are people earning up to around 27-28k gross, depending where you look.
A nurse with a couple of years in, Band 5 step 2-3, earns around 33k which after deductions comes out around 27k. (gov figs).

One of those pensioners with 333k in the bank, likely much in ISAs, at 4.5% gets 15k (Isas tax free) in interest plus 12k pension (27k)
or if they've cautiously but passively invested it, the 333k would produce say 25k a year, making 37k a year. Tax free. Beats the Nurse.

If they are lucky enough to (apart from the house) have 500k sitting in the market and they get the same rate (I used 7.5%)
then in round numbers
Pension 12k, Isa income ( from 250k at 7.5%) 18.75k , non isa income 18.75k less cgt at 18% of 15.75 = 2.835k

=12+ 18.75 + 15.9k = 46.6k pa having only paid the 2835 in tax.

That to me is not fair, compared with the working nurse, getting 27 k having paid 6k tax.

I have pointed out elsewhere how someone with a nurse's intellect ( they all have degrees now) assuming happenstance capital, can spend a fraction of the time a nurse works, earning a considerable amount, paying hardly any tax at all.

Rache, we're doin' it wrong.

 

[Odds]

If y'all still awake after all dem words, dem words, dem dry words; here's a brief recap on the Bre*it effect:

The drop in GDP is now estimated to be between 6% and 8%, with investment down by as much as 18%.
Trade is on course to be 15% less than it would have been had we stayed in the EU...
...while a staggering 85% of those who import or export goods report problems that they didn’t have before.

Can y'all believe it was ten years ago?

'post-truth' was word of the year. The referendum was cock-up of the century. And now y'all want to elect one of the weasels responsible for it all?

Madness on a loop.

 

[Justin Passing]

Well there's Wes Streeting's idea of rejoining? Knowing how they'd want to screw us...?
I don’t think I'd vote for that.

 

[motorbiking]

Of the four most popular retirement destinations, only Greece has some zero rated CGT, depending on the specific class of personal investment.
But Greece is the least favourable of the four most popular destinations.

There are a few with zero and low rates.

Capital Gains Tax Rates in Europe, 2026

Denmark, Norway, and the Netherlands levy the highest 2026 capital gains tax rates in Europe. Explore capital gains taxes by country.

taxfoundation.org

 

[Justin Passing]

I'd struck a couple of high ones, and probably confused it with IHT, which is relevant to me.
If living abroad in a mildly clever arrangement, I doubt you'd have to give up UK residence at all, but I don't know. You'd have to spend at least 16 days a year here, anyway.

Having checked a few, most countries aren't as generous as here about ISAs in which you can accumulate up to 20k per year each tax free,
or treasury bonds which are almost tax free on gains.
Our well-off-ish couple of pensioners would of course have 2x the savings/worldly wealth from the above, say around £1 million, and likely would have a chunk of their savings sheltered from tax altogether.
With perhaps 500k in ISAs and the rest in bonds at just over 4%, they would pay ~zero in tax.
In this country an active S&S investor, checking his funds' progress weekly and shifting a few times a year, wouldn't have to pay more than about 8%, while doubling the value in the past 12 months. Tech/chips/far east would have got you far more than a doubling.

In France for example, you'd pay 30% in a PEA account unless you left the money there 5 years, then it would be 17.2%.

 

[motorbiking]

It didn't make much sense increasing CGT for low earners, they seem to be going after the FIRE-bridgers who are using investments to get between working and pension. People who have no doubt paid lots of income tax while working.