Heating setup query...help !!

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Nowhere in the OP's Post does he ever mention the words "CHEAP"!!!!
why do we always go down the route of trying to shave cost by omitting LLH individual cct pumps decent controls and layout, in favour of a couple of rotten Ravenheap boilers that are Cheap and nasty and will give poor results - from the OPs original spec, it seems he is prepared to pay for whatever it takes to install a 1st class system!!

this is where our industry goes wrong - it starts trying to be cheap and cost cutting, even before the client asks for it !! (rant over)! :eek:
 
Nowhere in the OP's Post does he ever mention the words "CHEAP"!!!!
why do we always go down the route of trying to shave cost by omitting LLH individual cct pumps decent controls and layout, in favour of a couple of rotten Ravenheap boilers that are Cheap and nasty and will give poor results - from the OPs original spec, it seems he is prepared to pay for whatever it takes to install a 1st class system!!

this is where our industry goes wrong - it starts trying to be cheap and cost cutting, even before the client asks for it !! (rant over)! :eek:

You're not ranting mate, you are stating facts. And well said that man!!
 
3 x combi boilers... now this is something completely different..

I had some issues with my broadband hence no reply etc...sorry..

I def can not redo the plumbing to the bathrooms as all the pipework has been run.

What is remaining is the controls / pumps / tank(s) / boiler(s) / softener.

I understand this is not going to be cheap, and I am prepared to fork out initially with the proviso that it will be an efficient system to run long term.

S can we get back to original plans around heating / system boilers possible LLH etc.

If I have 5 circuits off LLH I would need the same size pump for all these circuits ? else, will a stronger pump on one not get greedy with the heat in the LLH ? Also if this is more powerful than the shunt pump it will again not function correctly ?

If water is set to priority that will mean regardless of the fact that the other 4 heating circuit stats are calling - the pumps / valves will not switch on / open.

Potentially, this will mean that the full power of the boiler is not being utilised ? Say if the coil is 35Kw rated and boiler is 40Kw we could be using the spare 5kw to heat one of the circuits ? I hope you understand my 'theory' apols if I am not making any sense.

What about 2 boilers 24kw each ? Some theory that this would be more efficient as not running on max as 1 boiler would be ? My questions are how would these be setup in parallel ? 2 inflows to LLH and 5 circuits out ?

And would these boilers then come on at the same time ? each with their own internal pump and a bigger shunt pump for the LLH circuit ?

Would one boiler come on until 60 deg and another kick in from 60 to 85 ( or whatever the max is ) and then some form of boiler sequencer changing the order of which one comes on early / late on a weekly cycle.

Still not sure if I need 1 pump per each circuit connected to LLH ?
 
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My solution...

Two boilers running on a cascade setup with their own shunt pumps feeding into a LLH.

Then one large system pump on the return from the 5 loops. keep the underfloor heating manifold as is.

The coil is rated at 25kW but it will not be drawing that full time. For that you need a thermal store.

Or alternatively you cold do a the same but with one big boiler.

I did this recently with an Atag system boiler but the hot water and heating controls were wired separately to the boiler so that the boiler ran flat out for HW recovery, but on heat only, it would start off low and crank up as the demand was needed. No fancy relays, controls or anything. Atag's LLH, Grundfos system pump, 28mm zone valve for the cylinder and 4 Honeywell 22mm valves for the heating zones.

Works like a dream.
 
Wow, Dan is back from the land of the rising sun! Missed the birthday party!

There is a lot of information that has been given but there are two information streams that have not been measured at all and have a significant effect on the way the system needs to be configured!

How many people live there? What are their bathing/showering habits?

What is the dynamic flow rate of the mains supply? For example what flow rate can you take whilst 1.0 Bar remains in the supply pipes?

Whilst cost does not seem to be terribly important to you, it would be a good idea to install a system which is economical to run. A house with a heat loss of 30 kW would usually use about £4000-£5000 of gas each year.

A well designed ( AND used ! ) weather compensation system can save about 7% of the heating running costs and would be well advised.

Tony Glazier
 
Got back ,but had a run in with a typhoon...

I will assume cylinder size, water supply are adequate for now... that has been covered sooooo many times on here - the same questions seem to pop up as regualr as clockwork.

With my set up it is very easy to implement weather comp too.

:cool:
 
Dan I am trying to visualise your suggestion.

Say I have 2 boilers both coming on when either heating or HW calls.

Both flows from each boiler connected to LLH.

Both returns coming from LLH back to boilers.

Flow in LLH running propelled by both internal boiler pumps.

The LLH connections are 1 x 28mm flow and return for HW. The pump for the tank being 15/50 ?

And 1 x 28 mm flow for heating ( split into 4 x 22mm with zone valves ) coming back to LLH as 1 x 28mm return with 1 big system pump.(25/55?)

Or does it mean 4 x 22 mm outlets direct from LLH with individual zone valves and 1 x 28mm coming back in.

Lets's assume HW content and pressure is good, how would the control of this setup work ? HW on its separate clock and 4 x heating circuits with their own ?

And what happens if all 5 call at same time ? both boilers will come on which is fine, but then you have 1 big pump for the heating circuits compared to the 15/50 for the HW - would this not draw more of the heat into the heating circuits and starve the HW circuit ? would this not happen any time any 1 of the heating circuits came on while water was also in demand.

The more i think about this the more I think I can't have HW on priority as potentially on a cold day, heating up 400l of water will take 1hr if given 35KW of heat - which would mean no heat for the house during this period. And if showers and baths are had back to back could mean no heat for a few hours while tank is reheating.

Would I still put in the mixer valves on the heating circuits to bring temp down on the supply from 85 to 65 for better efficiency and leave HW direct without mixing valve.
 
Here is a picture of the set up we did with a single boiler.


Ignore having two boilers - if they are on a cascade they sort themselves out.

This one has 5 zone valves.

One for hot water. A timer controls this and the zone valve controls go to the boiler's dedicated hot water control circuit.

The 4 heating valves are run from individual programmable room stats (so no separate timer)... two of them are underfloor manifolds with sub zones (but the manifold wiring centres sort those out).

Ditch the 15/50 - on a job like this it is futile to try and preserve such a thing.

The dual control circuits in the boiler negate the need for blending valves. Your heating will crank up to higher temperatures when there is a hot water demand, but then you are more likely to want a boost anyway at those times. The boilers internal control will regulate the heating temperatures when there is no HW demand. the relative differences in efficiencies will be negligible.

Remember you heating zones will have local temperature regulating controls in the form of TRV's.
 
wow !! now that's what I call an install...

looks like a work of art...

thanks so much for all the advice so far and this is now finally sinking in... and is something not just theoretical but practical as you have proved with this setup.

I need some time to digest this all :)
 
Pity you dont want to tell us how many people live there!

It also seems to me to be odd that rather than employ a heating expert/consultant you choose to manage the design yourself!

Tony Glazier
 
Thanks for the comment.

bear in mind with that picture - the client had very specific demands of hot water, and (that was in the garage) that dimensions were adhered to that allowed him to get a wheelbarrow passed the cylinder, and his wife wouldn't hot the boiler assembly with her car :eek:

Some aspect of that install were totally over specified, but it was with the customer's knowledge.
 
J1mmy,

I was wondering what way to go in my extension. I was considering UFH all around the house and extn. One highly rated and very bright heating man, a friend of a friend, came over to talk and have a beer. He said with the UFH do not go the complicated route. He said boilers have caught up in recent years and can make matters simple and cheaper. He suggested having a Geminox boiler as it is the only one that runs down to 1 kllowatt and up to around 12 I think. This Geminox would only do the UFH, nothing else. I think he said it would only have one pump, the variable automatic speed Grundfoss Alpha type that winds down when UFH zones close off. The zone valves would be the normal quality Danfoss 22mm, not the expensive special UFH valves, and each zone with its own stat timer.

When all zone valves are closed the boiler is off. As the boiler can run down to only 1 kilowatt, most only go down to around 6 or so, he said the boiler will not cycle and just efficiently burn away at a very low rate. This saves gas as well. He then suggested a separate boiler for the DHW cylinder or a large Japanese multi-point depending on water usage. He said this is the cheapest and best technical solution rather than complex and expensive headers, blending valves, special UFH manifolds, specialist controls and thermal stores and the rest you find with UFH. He said its is also the cheapest way as well. The Geminox boiler is set to 50C and a simple high limit pipe thermostat installed to protect the plastic UFH pipes. He has done quite a few systems using this way and never had any problems as long as the UFH pipes are laid properly and give even heat. I suppose getting the pipes right is the same with any UFH.

He said complex systems are only for commercial systems, domestic can be far simpler, and cheaper, using simple available domestic boilers and readily available kit, even if it meant using two cheap boilers. He said large domestic/small commercial boilers are very expensive and the complex controls they need really runs up the costs. He made sense to me.

In your case the second boiler can be a normal setup doing the hot water and the rads on separate zones along with the towel rail. With two boilers you have some sort of backup, although not full backup in this case as the UFH boiler cannot do hot water.

To me, his Geminox boiler route is worth considering. As you have seen there are many ways to solve the problem. Some on here appear over complex, bulky and commercial to me and hence expensive. But as this guy says, separate the functions, even if using more than one boiler for the separate functions, and make it simple. I await flack :)

PS. Maybe I should not have told how he does it quickly, cheaply and simply (his words), as he is inundated with work.
 
A good solution if your hot water demands can be satisfied with a Multipoint (with no backup); and you are on UFH only (unless it's a totally modern building that can work off 50 rad flows).

I suspect the OP's system will be too disparate to work on such a set up though.
 
What is the white surface that the pipe work/boiler is fitted to in that image?
 

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