All joints must be accessible?

ban-all-sheds · 10 Feb 2016

The NEC applies where many buildings are constructed with drywalling.

It would only take someone to say (probably with justification) that they did not intend the internal partitions to be permanent, and that they fully expected reconfiguration to take place during the life of the main structure, for an awful lot of concealed stuff to be "accessible"

JohnW2 · 10 Feb 2016

PBC_1966 said:
JohnW2 said:

Full of uncertainties As I said, I personally probably wouldn't even attempt a definition!

Click to expand...

I think that's the problem with these sort of definitions where there are so many shades of gray between what is obviously easily accessible and what is not (the definition I used above is from the NEC, by the way). ... If you want to take it to the extreme, anything is accessible - It just depends how much effort you want to go to in order to access it and how much remedial work you want to do afterwards to repair whatever was damaged in gaining access!

Exactly. Much as some won't like it, I really think this is a situation in which one simply has to allow for judgement/discretion of the designer/installer. Maybe it a situation in which that word beloved of legislators ("reasonable") needs to be invoked - i.e. to require that the joint be "reasonably accessible" and then leave the designers/installers to decide what they consider "reasonable"??

Kind Regards, John

PBC_1966 · 10 Feb 2016

ban-all-sheds said:
It would only take someone to say (probably with justification) that they did not intend the internal partitions to be permanent, and that they fully expected reconfiguration to take place during the life of the main structure, for an awful lot of concealed stuff to be "accessible"

You still couldn't access something without cutting into the drywall though, which would involve damaging the finish and would be caught by the the first part of the definition.

The NEC also uses the term "readily accessible" for things which need to be accessed quickly and without delay, such as an isolation switch.

stillp · 10 Feb 2016

PBC_1966 said:
The NEC also uses the term "readily accessible"

Does it define "readily"?

PBC_1966 · 10 Feb 2016

stillp said:
Does it define "readily"?

Could you define what you mean by "define" please?

Anyway:

Readily Accessible Capable of being reached quickly, for operation, renewal, or inspections, without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, chairs, etc.

stillp · 10 Feb 2016

But it doesn't state that they might need special tools, keys, etc. Sometimes you just have to use common sense and the Oxford English Dictionary.

JohnW2 · 10 Feb 2016

stillp said:
But it doesn't state that they might need special tools, keys, etc. Sometimes you just have to use common sense and the Oxford English Dictionary.

Quite so - as I wrote:

JohnW2 said:
...Much as some won't like it, I really think this is a situation in which one simply has to allow for judgement/discretion of the designer/installer. Maybe it a situation in which that word beloved of legislators ("reasonable") needs to be invoked - i.e. to require that the joint be "reasonably accessible" and then leave the designers/installers to decide what they consider "reasonable"??

... aka "common sense".

Kind Regards, John

stillp · 10 Feb 2016

Unfortunately, common sense isn't common.

ringi · 10 Feb 2016

Just use a WAGO box and connectors!

If there is ANY chance that a carpet will be fixed to the floor, then accessible would be hard to defend.

JohnW2 · 10 Feb 2016

stillp said:
Unfortunately, common sense isn't common.

Indeed. I learnt that a long time ago.

More seriously, I think that 'micro-management' by over-regulation has often been one of the major factors behind people ceasing to apply (or coming to believe that they are not allowed to apply) knowledge and common sense.

Kind Regards, John

PBC_1966 · 10 Feb 2016

JohnW2 said:
More seriously, I think that 'micro-management' by over-regulation has often been one of the major factors behind people ceasing to apply (or coming to believe that they are not allowed to apply) knowledge and common sense.

And perhaps an expectancy of such that might lead to some people not applying common sense, hence the idiotic warnings about the blindingly obvious found on so many things so they don't come back and try to say "But you didn't warn me."

"Contents may be hot after heating," "Do not rotate cutter on finger," "Oven gets hot during use," etc.

JohnW2 · 11 Feb 2016

PBC_1966 said:
... hence the idiotic warnings about the blindingly obvious found on so many things so they don't come back and try to say "But you didn't warn me." ... "Contents may be hot after heating," "Do not rotate cutter on finger," "Oven gets hot during use," etc.

Quite so, not to mention the infamous 'mixed wiring colours' stickers on CUs. Those who know what the 'warning' is talking about don't need to be 'warned'; those who don't know will very rarely have a clue as to what is meant by "wiring colours to two versions of BS7671"!

Kind Regards, John

Echo the husky · 11 Feb 2016

PBC_1966 said:
And perhaps an expectancy of such that might lead to some people not applying common sense, hence the idiotic warnings about the blindingly obvious found on so many things so they don't come back and try to say "But you didn't warn me."

Anyone who has read though the installer manual for newer Vaillant boilers will have witnessed this. One part of the instructions tells you that the boiler is supplied in a box. The next section tells you to remove the boiler from the box. If you can't work that out yourself you aren't going to have the mental capacity to complete the installation. The rest of the manual is just packed with (often obvious) safety warnings at the end of every paragraph, it makes finding the part you are trying to look up rather time consuming.

thirdtimelucky · 11 Feb 2016

Gentlemen. Thank you for your advice. The reason for the question was that we were fitting new radiators and pipework when we came across a birds nest of loose and exposed wiring and 2 interlinked junction boxes just lying in the void. The lights to an extension had been spured off to a fcu and also to a socket in the room below. I have now separated the lighting circuit from the ring and connected it to the 5a lighting circuit. I have secured the 2 junction boxes and earth blocks to a fixed board between the joists and ensured all connections are secure with insulation up to but not under the screws. One thing I couldn't do was take the sheath into the junction box because it had been stripped back too far with no slack. I hope that meets safety requirements.

ban-all-sheds · 11 Feb 2016

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All joints must be accessible?

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