Can I use TWO lots of 6mm T&E for a 10KW shower?

[PaulIG11]

{snip} The notification fees are substantial (vary around country but one hears of figues varying from £150 to £400) such that, if one wishes to play by the rules/laws, it is generally (financially) sensible to pay a self-certifying electrician for small jobs.

As I stated above - what was a likely to be a £100 to £150 job in total has become a £300 job - I either do it myself and get shafted by the local authority who will ook at what I've done (making sure I've not used bell cable) or pay someone to do something that I am actually capable of doing myself but am effectively prevented by the law from doing so - or just do it and be damned / invalidate the house insurance, etc, etc, etc. The rant was about what I thought the changes would bring.... and it appears to be there or thereabouts....

Talking of colour changes, am I right in believeing that black (the old neutral) is now a 2nd or 3rd live in 3 phase wire along with grey??? Who dreamt that one up

 

[JohnW2]

As I stated above - what was a likely to be a £100 to £150 job in total has become a £300 job - I either do it myself and get shafted by the local authority who will ook at what I've done (making sure I've not used bell cable) or pay someone to do something that I am actually capable of doing myself but am effectively prevented by the law from doing so - or just do it and be damned / invalidate the house insurance, etc, etc, etc. The rant was about what I thought the changes would bring.... and it appears to be there or thereabouts....

Yep, that's about it - and, as I said, I have considerable sympathy with your views. £300 for a '£100-£150 job' would actually be very lucky - it's likely to be significantly more than that.

Talking of colour changes, am I right in believeing that black (the old neutral) is now a 2nd or 3rd live in 3 phase wire along with grey??? Who dreamt that one up

You're not alone in thinking that some of the 'harmonised' colours (and, in particular, the changes from previous UK colours) are a bit crazy. As you've said, red is almost universally regarded as 'danger', and no-one can be criticised too much for associating brown with earth - and, yes, black is now a live colour in 3-phase wiring. However, this is an international thing, and is never going to go away, so we just have to live with it. I suppose that, in a generation or two, no-one will 'know any better'.

Since you're new to the forum, I should perhaps point out to you that I am not, never have been and never will be an electrician of any shape or form!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The next question is this: I have fitted showers in bathrooms, ring mains in kitchens and consumer units into garages in the past (prior to 2004)

What did you do about testing?

Being cynical, I think that this has been done PRIMARILY to stop sparkies making a few quid on the side at weekends and not paying income tax for doing cash in hand jobs

No, it was brought in, ostensibly, to stop unqualified kitchen and bathroom fitters, plumbers, landscape gardeners, handymen etc from doing electrical work, as that was the preserve of electricians. The electrical trade bodies, primarily NICEIC and the ECA, had seen the gravy-train that was Corgi, and wanted the same for electrics.

And then as soon as they got it they invented a new classification called "Domestic Installer", created a "qualification" which almost anyone could get, and started registering (for a nice fee, of course) kitchen and bathroom fitters, plumbers, landscape gardeners, handymen etc....

other than connecting the earth to the plumbing at various points

What points?

And why?

do I really need to know voltage drops

Err... yes, you do, actually.

& coulombs per second / megajoules / impedance / henrys / farads, yada, yada, yada

You think you don't need to understand impedance?

- rather than making sure that the terminals are clean, dry, well insulated and that the cable is screwed down nice and tight to all connectors????

Do you think that's all there is to it?

... something that I am actually capable of doing myself ...

Are you?

If you did DIY, what would you do to check that the cable had the right capacity after all the de-rating factors were applied?

What would you do before installing it to check that the EFLI value would be OK?

Do you know what tests you would carry out on the circuit - what sequence you'd do them in and at what point you would energise it, and for each test do you know what is being measured, why it is important, how you would carry out the test, and with what equipment, and what sort of results you would expect to get if everything was OK?

 

[PaulIG11]

Ban-all-sheds - you are quite right of course in pointing out all the flaws in my obvious lack of knowledge.

What I really need is to have to pay someone like you £150 for coming and changing a fuse to an iron for me because I am quite incapable of doing this safely for myself, ain't I?

I am not an electrician and I don't claim to be but I take it from some of the posts I've seen of yours that you are the type who thinks that someone with less knowledge (or qualifications) than you can not REASONABLY safely do any job to ANY standard.

I know that you will scoff at this but I haven't killed anyone nor burned anyone's house down nor even got a whack (big or small) off of any electrical work I've done in the past - and if something is or has been too big for me or something I've not understood, I have always asked someone who does know. I also accept that a little knowledge can be very dangerous when misapplied too.

But how do I know what I know (and am wary of what I don't but remain confident enough to proceed with REASONABLE CAUTION)???? Bearing in mind I have openly stated am NOT an electrician myself?.... A brother of mine was an electrician with the LEB about 3 decades ago - and I was his "go-for" on occasion at the weekend wiring houses and the like. Does what I learned from him make me a sparky then? Er, very much no - not at all - but he did teach me the very important things like 'take the fuse to the circuit you're working on out of the consumer unit and keep it in your pocket - so no-one can accidently (or thoughtlessly) switch it on.

But d'you know what, Ban-All-Sheds, omnipotence personified; I can tell from the arrogant way you have posted not just here but elsewhere on this board that you are so full of "anyone who isn't triple certified shouldn't be allowed to look at a consumer unit - let alone switch the mains on" no matter what someone like me might say to you it won't be good enough.

But then again people like you who put additives in your car or check the timing with a strobe light are actually choking the entire planet and are personally responsible for the 2 feet rise in water due to global warming..... What do you mean you know hoe to use a strobe light; you should get your car checked every 3 months for emmissions and pay the local garage at least £200 a time because they have all the test equipment !!!!!!!

If you want to engage with me in rational, reasonable discussion about what is practical and reasonable, I'll gladly talk through your point of view; if you want to be smug and arrogant then I won't waste any more of my time.

Oh - and why haven't I asked my brother for advice on this? Because he is no longer around, that's why - but at least I knew I needed to ask something I wasn't sure about.... And getiting the prat treatment from someone like you is completely overboard, unnecessary and patronising. It also makes you out to be a pompous tosser! Not everybody who isn't a qualified sparky is going to try to run a cooker on speaker wire.

I will repeat what my brother told me about part P when it came out: It stopped him from being able to go and do a job in someone's house and evade paying tax because there is now a paper trail. And just because a circuit has been tested by the very latest kit (ameters, voltage drops along with all the calculations for temperature, number of bends / kinks, etc, etc, etc) even when put in and then tested by someone as wonderful and faultless as you like to think you are can go bad the next day.

It's about what is REASONABLE and what is PRACTICAL. As things stand, idiots will (as I wrote above) put spurs off of spurs off of spurs using light cable (without an in-line fuse) and not give two monkeys whilst reasonably competent people like I still believe I am will have have that conficdence knocked and knocked and knocked by the likes of you to the point I will have fear of putting a fuse in a plug in case it electrocutes someone. The fact that you have been co-erced into paying & renewing your part P @ 3 grand a time really, really, really, really doesn't mean that when someone like me connects a radial to a consumer unit protected by a fuse of the right size everything will go bang, the house WILL burn down and 25 people will die!!!!!

You really are a pompous prat, mate - a great piece of advice on a place like this is go and get some help with your obviously lacking people skills. I try to credit people who show a modecum of intellect with some intelligence and not talk down to them like a school teacher berating a child.

To everyone else who has been genuinely helpful - I am very grateful - thankyou for your time. I will now consider whether to just disappear having found out what I came on here to ask. It's self centred pompous oafs like this guy who make using the internet a real bind.

I'm off to bed - goodnight!

 

[JohnW2]

Ban-all-sheds ... I am not an electrician and I don't claim to be but I take it from some of the posts I've seen of yours that you are the type who thinks that someone with less knowledge (or qualifications) than you can not REASONABLY safely do any job to ANY standard. .... But how do I know what I know (and am wary of what I don't but remain confident enough to proceed with REASONABLE CAUTION)???? Bearing in mind I have openly stated am NOT an electrician myself?....

For what it's worth, it may interest you to know that, just as I said of myself (and as you say of yourself), BAS is not an electrician either. However, he does write quite a lot!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I have *plenty* of 6mm T&E cable (100m spool).

Max.CCC of 6mm² T+E clipped direct is 47A.

For a shower, I know that I can't run anything bigger than around 8KW off of a single run.

10.8kW @ 240V is 45A which will be the quoted rating (= 9.94 @ 230 is 43.2A)

But what about if I use TWO runs (ie, if I run TWO 6mm cables from the consumer unit to the corded switch in the bathroom & TWO cables from there to the shower itself? (ie to run the cables in parallel - you could think of it like a ring main but with only one feed point & one draw point)

Stupid idea.

Prime question IS IT SAFE to do this?

No.

2nd question: Is it LEGAL to do this (even if unconventional)?

May not be specifically illegal if you see the difference.

3rd question: If this is safe and allowed, what would the maximum size of the shower I'd be able to have then be?

22.5kW but it's not.

The reason why I ask this is that I already have 100 metres of 6mm cable that I don't have to pay for !!!! If I end up having to buy 10mm cable then it's an expense I'd rather avoid if possible.

Stupid reason.

Any observations?

You will need the appropriate testing equipment to ensure you comply with Part P of the Building Regulations, i.e. the short statement with regard to protection from fire and injury.- another £500-ish.

Not to mention the part of the law regarding notification.


You have clearly demonstrated that you don't know what you don't know and don't like being told that.

 

[PaulIG11]

I have *plenty* of 6mm T&E cable (100m spool).

Max.CCC of 6mm² T+E clipped direct is 47A.

For a shower, I know that I can't run anything bigger than around 8KW off of a single run.

10.8kW @ 240V is 45A which will be the quoted rating (= 9.94 @ 230 is 43.2A)

But what about if I use TWO runs (ie, if I run TWO 6mm cables from the consumer unit to the corded switch in the bathroom & TWO cables from there to the shower itself? (ie to run the cables in parallel - you could think of it like a ring main but with only one feed point & one draw point)

Stupid idea.

Prime question IS IT SAFE to do this?

No.

2nd question: Is it LEGAL to do this (even if unconventional)?

May not be specifically illegal if you see the difference.

3rd question: If this is safe and allowed, what would the maximum size of the shower I'd be able to have then be?

22.5kW but it's not.

The reason why I ask this is that I already have 100 metres of 6mm cable that I don't have to pay for !!!! If I end up having to buy 10mm cable then it's an expense I'd rather avoid if possible.

Stupid reason.

Any observations?

You will need the appropriate testing equipment to ensure you comply with Part P of the Building Regulations, i.e. the short statement with regard to protection from fire and injury.- another £500-ish.

Not to mention the part of the law regarding notification.


You have clearly demonstrated that you don't know what you don't know and don't like being told that.

Another really friendly guy: I asked a reasonable question and this know-it-all can't just say "not a god idea, because...." He has to say "Stupid Idea" and belittle me for having the temerity to ask.

If running two cables on a circuit is so much of a "stupid idea". why is 2.5mm T&E used in ring mains where one cable goes one way around the ing and the other goes the other? "Stupid?" Edited to add: Is 2.5mm cable rated to 24A but doubled up into a ring it is use in power circuits in houses protected by a 30A fuse???

Why does it make me "Stupid" or actually open me up to uncalled for abuse by people like you for stating the obvious that I don't want to spend (waste) money unless I actually have to. If you'd taken the chance to read some of the helpful contributions of others, and my replies to them, you will see I had actually worked through the idea and discounted it on the basis that I would need to spend any money I might save on the cable by then having ot find and use the very best fittings I might possibly be able to buy! Another opportunity for someone like you to insult someone you don't know and demonstrate your poor people skills: Were your mum and dad like that?

As for not liking being told I don't know what I don't know - in all fairness, I can accept having my flaws and shortcomings drawn to my attention. But there are many, many ways to do that - and calling people stupid while holding your dick in your hand isn't a great way to have those faults pointed out.

There are some sensible people on this board but there are quite a few prats too.

 

[bernardgreen]

Putting two 6 mm conductors into a single terminal has the problem that on the two conductors are not parallel as the insulation separates them just before the bare copper enter the screw down area. So no matter how tightly the screw is turned there is a small space between the copper strands at the entry to the terminal. In the shower's terminal block this will create a severe risk of the joint loosening over time.

If in emergency I had to use two strands of 6 mm I would then use a double screwed terminal ( two screws into each terminal ) to join the two 6 mm cables to a short length of 10 mm into the shower terminals. Double screws allow the screw nearest the insulation to slacken as the copper and insulation deform over time while the second screw ensures ( for a longer period ) an electrically secure joint.

But as said that would be in an emergency. In the OP's situation I would buy 10 mm.

 

[PaulIG11]

Paul - you are not welcome here.

Go away.

I gathered that from the way you and your mate started waving your cocks about - I will repeat that there is more than one way to speak to (communicate with) other people!

You, my friend - purely on the statement "I am not an electrician" start asking me about trip times on mini-circuit-breakers in the full knowledge that I won't be able to answer in order to belittle.... A complete prat who has no people skills!

But before I sign off I will tell you how I "tested" things in the past: I have a "plug with lights" that my brother gave me - if there is a fault the lights either don't work (some or all of them) and they change colour: Also the visual check and the checking that all the connectors are tight and that there is no strain on them. 3rdly testing - switch it on and see what happens - use my nose / eyes for burning, etc. As I stated earlier. for all the calculations my brother was capable of (and indeed sat and did), he used to say that on leaving a site if someone moved something [not necessarily by unscrewing one of the terminals!], if someone placed anything near or on or by a cable run it would change its resistance and all those figure would be wrong. And the ambient temperature affects resistance in a cable too, so those values change or would be different dependent on whether it's summer or winter!

This thread has degenerated into a spat, however, because a number of people have taken to insulting me for deigning to ask a question and then telling me that because I (as I freely admit) don't know every single number I must be an idiot! I have never changed my opinion about anything while being insulted.

I asked a few questions because I am bright enough to say to myself "Hmmmm is this going to be safe (if unusual) and put that to a forum for comment - the first one was EFLImpudence with his friendly

It's a STUPID idea,

Save even more money and don't buy the shower.

And then you plastering this link

as if I'd just slap anything in with complete indifference to the safety of others or my own!

What were you thinking? Another geezer you can give it large over and patronise with glib incandescent comments who'd suck up to a prat like you? I let the first let go - apologies to everyone else (the reasonable ones) that I couldn't let the 2nd tranche of patronising claptrap go! Put your cock away mate and go and find a girlfriend - don't take your obvious inadequate sexual frustrations (the need to be a master rutter) out on me or other people whom you don't know - it just makes you out to be a complete knob.

Like I said - my apologies to every one else and thanks for the advice and food for thought (the consideration of the terminal connections was something which I hadn't thought about when I posted the original question - and I may have found out about it on doing the job [if I'd decided to do it myself])

 

[plugwash]

Why do you hate being required to make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury?

"reasonable provision" is one hell of a weasel term. How do you compare the safety of two installation methods given that we have virtually nothing in the way of statistics (are stats for electrical house fires broken down by wiring method? I doubt it) ? how much risk is too much? Is the ass-covering testing that electricians do absoloutely required?

In reality such requirements tend to translate as "you will follow the established standard from standards body X or we will make your life hell". Thereby effectively giving that standards body the ability to impose requirements as draconian as it likes.

Having said that what gets people most about part P is the notification requirements that effecitvely force them to hire an "electrician" even if the job is well within their capabilities

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You, my friend - purely on the statement "I am not an electrician" start asking me about trip times on mini-circuit-breakers in the full knowledge that I won't be able to answer in order to belittle

No, I said nothing in order to belittle you.

Nor did I ask you the questions I did because you wrote "I am not an electrician".

I asked them because you said you were capable of designing and installing electrical circuits. That involves understanding voltage drop, which you had questioned the need to know about. It also involves understanding de-rating factors, fault loop impedances, tripping times etc, so I wondered what else you had decided was irrelevant to being capable of designing and installing electrical circuits.

.... A complete prat who has no people skills!

I'm not the one being abusive and childish.

But before I sign off I will tell you how I "tested" things in the past: I have a "plug with lights" that my brother gave me - if there is a fault the lights either don't work (some or all of them) and they change colour: Also the visual check and the checking that all the connectors are tight and that there is no strain on them. 3rdly testing - switch it on and see what happens - use my nose / eyes for burning, etc.

All woefully inadequate and incompetent.

And all you have done with that paragraph is to show, yet again, that you are not only far too ignorant to be doing the work you think you are quite capable of doing but that you are also one of those people who does not see why ignorance should be a reason not to fiddle.

As I stated earlier. for all the calculations my brother was capable of (and indeed sat and did), he used to say that on leaving a site if someone moved something [not necessarily by unscrewing one of the terminals!], if someone placed anything near or on or by a cable run it would change its resistance and all those figure would be wrong.

Did he really?

Either you misunderstood him or he too didn't understand.

And the ambient temperature affects resistance in a cable too, so those values change or would be different dependent on whether it's summer or winter!

Indeed.

Which is why temperature is taken into account. But then you don't know that, do you.

This thread has degenerated into a spat, however, because a number of people have taken to insulting me for deigning to ask a question and then telling me that because I (as I freely admit) don't know every single number I must be an idiot! I have never changed my opinion about anything while being insulted.

No - it has degenerated because you became objectionable and abusive when you were told that you were wrong and when you were asked questions which you couldn't answer.

Not knowing things doesn't make you an idiot. Self-justification of your ignorance by deciding those things don't matter, and doing electrical work which is outwith your competence are what make you an idiot.

I asked a few questions because I am bright enough to say to myself "Hmmmm is this going to be safe (if unusual) and put that to a forum for comment - the first one was EFLImpudence with his friendly

It's a STUPID idea,

Save even more money and don't buy the shower.

Actually there had been 2 replies before that one.

And then you plastering this link

as if I'd just slap anything in with complete indifference to the safety of others or my own!

Well - you had said "I hate this part P malarky" so I wanted to know just what it was you hated about being required to make reasonable provision in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury. Although it is now becoming clear that what you hate about it is the notion that you do actually have to know things.

And with your wilful ignorance, with your dismissive attitude to testing (does it catch fire when you switch on, FFS), slapping things in with complete indifference to the safety of others or your own is exactly what you are doing.

What were you thinking? Another geezer you can give it large over and patronise with glib incandescent comments who'd suck up to a prat like you? I let the first let go - apologies to everyone else (the reasonable ones) that I couldn't let the 2nd tranche of patronising claptrap go! Put your cock away mate and go and find a girlfriend - don't take your obvious inadequate sexual frustrations (the need to be a master rutter) out on me or other people whom you don't know - it just makes you out to be a complete knob.

How intelligently and articulately you make the case for it being OK to do electrical work when you don't know what you're doing.

We really have heard enough from you - will you go away now?

 

[PaulIG11]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear....

But wait - in my toolbox, I've found some of this spray on stuff:

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Been looking in the mirror, eh?

calling people stupid while holding your dick in your hand ... There are some sensible people on this board but there are quite a few prats too.

I gathered that from the way you and your mate started waving your cocks about ... A complete prat who has no people skills! ... Another geezer you can give it large over and patronise with glib incandescent comments who'd suck up to a prat like you? ... I couldn't let the 2nd tranche of patronising claptrap go! Put your cock away mate and go and find a girlfriend - don't take your obvious inadequate sexual frustrations (the need to be a master rutter) out on me or other people whom you don't know - it just makes you out to be a complete knob.

And I'm the one posting intentionally provocative inflammatory messages?

You can try to dismiss what I say about you not knowing what you should, and not appreciating the need to know them, as being untrue and only written to provoke you, but that won't alter their veracity.

It will make you look even more pathetic though.