Exploding 600w ATX PSU!

On a similar vain, ive rcently had both a dvd player and a satelite box that were rarely used and on standby, in seperate incidents on turning on , they both went blank, the repair man said it was the dvd power supply. the satelite ive not bothered with. Is this a similar thing to the OPs, if so why does this occur.
It certainly could be. bernard has explained the mechanism whereby electrolytic capacitors may deteriorate when not used (subjected to voltage) for long periods.

More generally, I think kit's true to say that by far the most common time for failure of most electronic components is at 'power up'. It's relatively unusual for any electronic thingy to suddenly die, or blow up, whilst 'running normally'.

Kind Regards, John
 
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Is this a similar thing to the OPs, if so why does this occur.

I am not an expert on this, but i believe that electrolytic caps can dry out over time through normal use and thus the electrolyte evaporates and dries out.

This can cause them to fail in a non catastrophic way leading to them loosing their capacitance or creating a short circuit if the insulation material inside breaks down.

Also as electrolytic caps are normally sealed and contain an electrolyte, the heat over time from them being used or the electrolyte reacting with the metal can cause the caps to bulge due to increasing pressure in side until they final fail in a catastrophic manor.

Regarding why your DVD player switched mode power supply failed, I would guess either the electrolyte inside the electrolytic caps just simply evaporated or instead it corded the metal and thus slowley increased the pressure inside until the electrolyte leaked out. Either that, or the caps or some other semiconductor inside the SMPS has lost it's original electrical proprieties, causing the circuit to fail and not work.

Also, electrolytic caps are not the only type of caps that can fail, and a lot of times failures can just be a component slightly drifting out of spec (such as a cap loosing a tiny bit of capacitance, or a resistor drifting out of spec, etc... ) and preventing the circuit from working.

Regards: Elliott
 
Ok thanks, you learn a lot here.
united we must skip thousands of pounds of stuff, due to a 10 pence component.
My one regret was not to learn further how to repair these things
 
They are more likely the other common problem - caps dried out. Over time, especially if they are "cheap" components or poorly specced, a cap that's being run in a hot environment (think stack of AV equipment in confined space) can dry out. The capacitance is reduced, and at some point the PSU fails to work correctly - sometimes they'll stay working as long as they are on, then not power up when turned off.

Satcure sell kits for repairing some common sat boxes for just this reason.
 
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More generally, I think kit's true to say that by far the most common time for failure of most electronic components is at 'power up'. It's relatively unusual for any electronic thingy to suddenly die, or blow up, whilst 'running normally'.

That remains true even if the item has only been down-powered for 15 minutes as opposed to 8 years.

It can lead to some awkward situations following EICRs :evil:
 
More generally, I think kit's true to say that by far the most common time for failure of most electronic components is at 'power up'. It's relatively unusual for any electronic thingy to suddenly die, or blow up, whilst 'running normally'.
That remains true even if the item has only been down-powered for 15 minutes as opposed to 8 years.
Indeed so - in fact, even 15 seconds might be enough in some cases.
It can lead to some awkward situations following EICRs :evil:
I can believe it. Similarly when one submits some electronic device for servicing/repair - the technician who presses the 'on' button just before it blows up must surely be 'to blame', mustn't (s)he? :)

Kind Regards, John
 
Actually john you may know this :)

Why does some electronic stuff not like being switched on too soon after turning off.

recently we had a lot of these plug in circuit boards blowing at petrol stations and the data people said that was the cause, so they went to the expense of fitting Delay ON timers set to about ten minutes to the mains supply, at about 100 odd locations.
 
Actually john you may know this :) ... Why does some electronic stuff not like being switched on too soon after turning off.
I fear that you are over-estimating me there - but it is certainly a real and well-recognised phenomenon! Could it be that they don't like being powered up whilst still warm, with attendant component changes? Very rapid on/off/on can presumably result in all sorts of surges and spikes etc.?

Some electromechanical devices are even more sensitive - in particular, hard drives hate being powered up whilst they are still spinning down - the resultant 'jolt' can kill them!

Kind Regards, John
 
recently we had a lot of these plug in circuit boards blowing at petrol stations and the data people said that was the cause, so they went to the expense of fitting Delay ON timers set to about ten minutes to the mains supply, at about 100 odd locations.

That wouldn't be Veeder root tank guage monitoring systems and the like would it?

I'm not sure that having a short duration disconnection and then power being restored would be too harmful to much, however repeated starts over a short duration are, as components can overheated from the repeated stress of switching on, PC power supplies are quite vunerable to this, and I have heard it reported that secondary schools have issues with this if the students discover this and the sockets are accessible! Back on track, I suppose if the switch arcs a bit when power is restored that would be as bad. An RCD test carried out on the circuit with switch mode loads connected might be stressful for the loads

Refrigeration also doesn't like being switched on soon after being switched off... the compressor tries to start under mechanical load due to pressures, and might throw the self resetting thermal overload internally, normally no damage occurs, it'll start when it resets, but if the fridge is old and getting close to failure...

Commercial refrigeration with numerous chill cases connected to a common set of refrigeration pipework going back to a bank of compressors in a plant room often requires to be shutdown in the correct manner, otherwise too much refrigerant can end up in the wrong state in the wrong place and can cause the compressors to be loaded when starting
 
Why does some electronic stuff not like being switched on too soon after turning off.

In a lot of electronic stuff the components in the power supply circuit are taken to and sometimes beyond their safe operating limits. For example until the smoothing capacitors are charged the rectifiers will be carrying a much higher current but the components survive as their thermal mass, if cold, can absorb the heat and keep the junctions cool during the overload. But if the thermal mass is warm then the junctions can overheat and fail.

Circuits powering down haphazardly on the power draining from the smoothing capacitors can, when power is restored, be in a random state that is unable to cope with full voltage on the power supplies. This can destroy integrated circuits.
 
A common method of controlling inrush current in some power supplies is to fit an NTC thermistor in series with the supply. At switch on, it is cold and has relatively high resistance, so limits inrush current during the initial cap charging phase. The thermistor soon warms up due to the current, and switches to it's low resistance state where it does little to impede the current flow.

With one of these, if you interrupt the power long enough to significantly discharge the reservoir caps, but not long enough for the thermistor to cool down, then on startup you get the full charging current without the current limiting. POP.

Though, to be honest, I don't recall having seen this method in anything I've had apart lately. Most seems to just have a "direct online" rectifier/capacitor arrangement which as pointed out almost certainly takes the rectifier beyond it's normal specifications. But bear in mind that most semiconductors do have a higher rating for "pulse" vs steady state - there are several limits, but one is thermal and much like a cable can carry a high current for a short period or a small current for a long period.
So as already pointed out - for these systems the rectifiers will already be "warm" when you ask them to take the full inrush current to recharge the caps. Thus you are relying on their thermal capacity when it's already partially used.

And then we get into more esoteric issues.
Most PSU chips have some sort of startup sequencing - even if it's only as simple as "once we have sufficient input then startup". Sometimes with a short power "blip" it's enough to drop the power levels to the point where "stuff" stops working, but not enough to trigger the normal power on, power up, reset everything cycle - so stuff "locks up" or behaves oddly until you power it off and on again.


Then there's capacitors, which most people don't realise have current/power ratings !
When used in power supply type applications, there is significant ripple current - which flow through the ESR (effective series resistance) of the cap. Ie each capacitor isn't ideal, it has resistance in it's leads - and most importantly - it's internal construction (long strips of aluminium foil for the types discussed here). You'll see some devices specifically marketed as "low ESR" specifically for power supplies. But regardless of that, in the detailed specs will be data regarding the allowable ripple current.

So again, in use they will be warm internally due to the long standing ripple current. If you momentarily blip the power, they get to discharge, then rapidly charge, while still "warm" and thus having less thermal capacity available to take the heat created by that inrush current.

And then some devices (incandescent light bulbs, valve heaters, CRT heaters, are ones that come to mind) take more power when cold.


But regardless of this, there is thermal cycling every time something is turned on or off. Turning off is usually more benign as the heat "just dissipates". At turn on, stuff goes from cold to normal operating temperature - usually fairly quickly. Each thermal cycle physically stresses components.


Probably none of these are enough in their own right, but when you add them all up, you get a statistically higher chance of failure during power on then when running at steady state.
 
That wouldn't be Veeder root tank guage monitoring systems and the like would it?
We only do the power to the veeder root, they seem forever alarming them things. I think they use Gilbarco or wayne dresser, if there still still called that.
These were known as "Meggit" boxes, they are black and have coloured flashing leds and about 4 slot in cards, the boxes have now been removed and an updated system fitted now.

The problem was when the site went down, there tech helpdesk advised them to operate the STOP button then operate the START button, though this tended to cause more of a problem.
As you know the E stops have to cut the pump data as well as mains power, so in turn shut off the meggits, they temporary fitted delay ON timers, but the meggits have since been removed and now they have the data lines via a relay box, so now the E stops switch the relays thus cutting the data lines to the pumps
 
They are more likely the other common problem - caps dried out. Over time, especially if they are "cheap" components or poorly specced,

Indeed, thousands of Thompson/SKY set top boxes have failure issues because of dud PSU capacitors.
 
There was quite a large problem with capacitors in consumer electronics up until about 8 years ago, causing very high failure rates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

Personally I would be careful with anything of that age, even if it is using properly specced and branded components. If it hasn't yet suffered premature failure, there's no guarantee it will have a reasonable lifespan.
 
If it is essential to use the item then the risk of a boil out can be reduced by re-forming the capacitors by applying a very low DC voltage to them ( via a resistor to limit the current in case the capacitor is beyond repair. ) If the current drops after time to be close to zero then slowly increase the voltage.
The trouble is on a switcher it can be easier said than done to actually do that.

With a bare capacitor you can obviously just use a resistor and a DC power source to slowly bring up the voltage but dealing with bare caps is going to be the exception not the rule (if you have already desoldered the cap may as well just replace it).

On an old fassioned linear PSU you can just slowly raise the mains input voltage, linear regulators will usually pass something even in dropout, so if the mains input voltage comes up slowly so will all the capacitors giving them chance to reform.

But many switcher toplogies have nasty modes involving low voltages and high currents (current goes UP as input voltage goes down) which depending on how cheap the manufacturer was there may or may not be protection against. So either the PSU doesn't turn on at all until you reach it's minimum input voltage (in which case only the input caps will get reformed) or if the designer has skimped on the protection it may get into said nasty mode placing stress on oehter components.

You could try to charge the capacitors individually from an external source but to do so safely would require a very good understanding of the circuit topology and controller behavoiur.
 

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