hot water output to 5 bath property

[doitall]

doitall,
This is a possibility as I can create a "boiler room" in the new extension. Do you mean use a whole house pump or pumps to the individual showers? Also, no-one seems to give any replies on the Vaillant unistor. Is this a no-no?

Ta, carl.

Yes I mean a sectional storage tank, and a whole house pump set.

You can then pump the cold and the hot into an unvented cylinder or store at a set pressure of say 3bar.

Are you intending baths to be installed or just showers, if showers only then allow a combined hot and cold drawoff at each outlet (shower) of 30 l/min as a minimum, the shower valve data sheet will give you exact volumes.

I would consider a 28mm secondary circuit with a 15mm return.

Subject to further information I would say an single 300 ltr cylinder would be more than enough for the 5 bathrooms.

 

[Agile]

Subject to further information I would say an single 300 ltr cylinder would be more than enough for the 5 bathrooms.

I think that John is concentrating on something else!

A 300 litre store will only allow a SIX minute shower at each bathroom. Thats totally inadequate!

I explained the significance and told you ages ago that you need TWO 310 litre stores which will give you at least a 10 minute shower in each bathroom.

Unfortunately, you totally ignored what I had said and then asked yet again if the Vaillant 300 litre cylinder would suffice! Clearly I am wasting my time giving you free advice! However I do know that there are others who find reading this advice of interest.

Tony

 

[doitall]

Subject to further information I would say an single 300 ltr cylinder would be more than enough for the 5 bathrooms.

I think that John is concentrating on something else!

A 300 litre store will only allow a SIX minute shower at each bathroom. Thats totally inadequate!

I explained the significance and told you ages ago that you need TWO 310 litre stores which will give you at least a 10 minute shower in each bathroom.

Unfortunately, you totally ignored what I had said and then asked yet again if the Vaillant 300 litre cylinder would suffice! Clearly I am wasting my time giving you free advice! However I do know that there are others who find reading this advice of interest.

Tony

Thats because we disagree with your figure Tony of should I say I do

There's bound to be some diversity, and if you build in temperature and re-heat factors.

 

[Agile]

Not going to be much reheating going on when the whole family are having their five six minute showers at the same time!

I agree that in most domestic situations a 310 litre will be adequate for five people with two bathrooms.

However this individual has FIVE bathrooms! If he must live with this level of opulence ( more than mine! ) then he should not skimp on the hot water system.

I can still remember the Bassett Road system you showed me with TWO 500 litre cylinders in a house primarily for just TWO people although there were about five bathrooms!

Why do have one standard for Bassett Road and another ( lower ) for this fellow? He has the same number of bathrooms and should be entitled to the same 1000 litres of stored hot water as well as the same stored cold water. You must remember that one as you spent so much time doing up all the nuts!

Tony

 

[ChrisR]

Oh dear. What a lot of basic stuff missing.
If you want 4 x very good simultaneous showers that could use
4 x 20l/min for 10 minutes = 800litres , plus the cold!

If your water main is One bar, (seems nobody's measured it???) an accumulator in the garage would be inappropriate. If the mains is 8 bar, ditto.

Determine your parameters, then get an engineer who can ride more than a one-trick pony.

 

[doitall]

I did sort of suggest that Chris, before anything is decided we need to know what showers etc.

Bassett road was special Tony.

A. there was 3 x 500ltr cylinders as well as 3 x broag 45Kw boilers

The showers had 500-600mm roses with 28mm supplies to each bathroom.

The pump set was set at up to 8bar.

Cold to house and cylinders was 6bar.

Back to the Op if 30Oltr was tight he could always consider using a 35Kw combi for the kitchen utility and one barhroom.

 

[ChrisR]

Well exactly John. 600mm roses, lovely. Allowing for exceptional circumstances which I know you sometimes face with your customers, what would the cost of that lot have been?!

The formula is so often so similar:
1) Customer only knows he needs "4 showers". Hasn't a clue that a full kit if equipment to supply what he actually wants could be £many many thousands.
2) Plumber 1: "you want X"
3) Plumber 2: "rubbish , what's the measurement of Y"
4) Customer: "is Z a good make?"
5) Customer gets ignored because the make doesn't matter much. Takes advice from shop assistant.
6) Plumber 3: No no, you need a super acme whizzo expensive thingybob. Which I sell.

At this point nobody knows the pressures, flows available or required, types and specs of shower fittings, actual demand pattern, need for backup, etc etc.

For ONE shower you can spend between almost nothing, for a just-adequate electric or gravity supply, and a few thousand for a high pressure, super high flow rate supply which will run for 20 minutes.

Start with your minimum must-have spec, eg say
2 showers simultaneously with 15l/min combined(ie warm) water each for 10 minutes
15 minute break
2 more showers
Sometimes 4 shower to be used at the same time.

You must choose your own numbers here. Eg my shower's 30 litres/minute but I can't run at that for long, because of limited storage. Good for a blast though.

Then tell us about your mains, distances and ALL space which could be available, and how much you had in mind to spend.
Remember in getting answers you have to provide for all the flow of (mains) water, and separately, the power to heat it quickly enough.

 

[simond]

If we are going to be this pedantic then can I be the first to remind everyone that you cannot design a good system on an internet forum.

The best we can hope to do is suggest some alternatives which the OP can discuss with his prospective tradesman.

If I took some of my initial customer requirements as gospel (eg: three baths, 3 showers, yes we'll use them all at once) we would be designing commercial calorifier systems for them.

I do not understand the comment about 8 bar in the garage but lets not start a war.

 

[Balenza]

Just install a good ole gravity system with plenty of storage and a decent shower pump. Job done.
A good plumber will advise you.


And remember if you have a UV cylinder fitted in your home then you and your family will be living next to a bomb for the rest of your lives.
http://www.waterheaterblast.com/

 

[JohnD]

yes, a bomb, provided you disable all the safety devices, block all the pipes, jam the thermostat "on"

I suppose you could make a gas cooker blow up if you tried hard enough.

 

[cjjemam]

Hello all,
Thanks for all the replies and sorry I haven't posted sooner (been away). However, I'm more confused. I'll give you the details of what we have and what we want and hopefully this will help.

Our house will eventually have 2 bathrooms (with baths), and three ensuites, making 5 showers in total. The three ensuites will have straightforward therm mixer valves with riser rails and ordinary shower heads. The house bathroom will have a separate shower and bath, again the shower will be a straightforward therm mixer with a fixed head (10" max., 24" way to big!). The last bathroom will have a mixer valve to a 10" fixed head and also 4/6 body jets. The same room will have a separate bath with a mixer valve and a ceiling filler. The feeds to the small ensuite showers (x3 h & c) will all be 15mm. The house bath and shower will be on individual 15mm h & c feeds. The last bath will be 22mm h & c feeds to shower mixer and also 22mm h & c to bath. All the above are valve inlet sizes (I know bath taps/mixers will be 3/4" but 15mm feeds will do).

As regards showering times, my kids would never spend 10 mins in there. However, I appreciate that as they get older they may do and this is why I want the installation right first time, but the chances of all of us using the showers at exactly the same time will be negligible. As long as definitely 2 and sometimes 3 of them can run at full whack for 5/10 mins simultaneously I'll be happy.

For the flow rates of all the above: I've seen a 1.5bar shower pump fed from a conventional system in action and this is more than adequate for the three smaller showers and the shower to the house bathroom. In the other bathroom I'd have thought a 3bar pump (flow rate) would do the trick.

ChrisR posted a reply that asked for all contributing factors and this makes sense and so its what I'm trying to do here. This is the existing
set up : CW mains fed in either 3/8" or 1/2" max. lead from water board stop tap app. 100' from house stop tap. First tee off in 15mm to kitchen sink which delivers 14l/min. This is within 4' of stop tap. Bath cold tap supplies 16l/min. No idea of pressure unfortunately. Space available re water storage is not a problem. I can create a 'boiler room' in extension (ground floor) if needs be, or there is room in the loft. As regards spending, if it's going to work then cost is not the major issue (within reason - if we're getting above £5K just for the boiler/cylinder ((not fitted)) then it's starting to get silly)

Finally, I don't want to sleep next door to a bomb. Surely these things have some sort of safety mechanisms as I was starting to be sold on the UV cylinder with accumlator

Hope this helps (ChrisR) and thanks, Carl.


PS I started posting this after work and then got dragged to pub so the end of it may not make much sense. Ta.