power for attic

[josh1e]

i want to install some equipment in the loft & would just like to confirm what i want to do is allowed / the right way to do it...

the equipment to go in the loft :-

4x 12vdc 1A psu or 1x 12vdc 4a psu (havent decided yet)
240vac 16port network hub,
240vac cctv recorder,
12vdc tv aerial amplifier (global loftbox)
2x flourescent striplights.

I can happily take the lighting from the upstairs ring, i've done it before & enough threads already on here to know what is the right way

However the remaining equipment I believe it is too much to take from a lighting circuit, and am certain the housing association wouldn't let me. (they fight everything they dont like inc a diy'er & electrics)

Would it be okay to take a spur from a double socket on the upstairs ring main into the loft, put it on a fused spur, then create a mini ring from the fused spur? can you get a fused spur with rcd protection rather than having it on every socket?

i would require probably 8 sockets (4 doubles) with a total load of no more than 13amps. I am not sure how to calculate actual load as some of the devices state 1A @ 12vdc, not 1A @ 240vac. i'm not sure if the amp's are the same or if there is some maths needed when converting from elv dc to lv ac...?

Please let me know what you think, the last time i approached the HA with a request like this, they tried to enforce a sparky with a new circuit completely...... (they just don't like tenants playing with the electric, which is understandable)

the CU has been replaced recently, its a volex protector with RCD protection. kitchen sockets on 1 trip, the rest of the house on a 2nd trip. the shed then has its own trip. lights upstairs & downstairs have been seperated with a trip for each ring but not the sockets. (32a trip for the sockets upstairs / downstairs)

thanks

 

[slup]

Hi

You don't need a ring - just spur off the ring main and fit an FCU followed by your four double sockets.

I doubt the kit you list will draw more than one or two amps at 240V.

To (roughly) work out the power consumption of ELV kit at 240V, do the following:-

12V at 4A is 48 watts (12x4)
48 watts at 240V is 0.2A (48/240)

Steve

 

[Taylortwocities]

Its your issue if you want to do this without the OK from the housing assoc. I assume that you do have rights of access etc into the loft?

You can run a spur from the ring (make sure it is a ring), put a 13A fused switched connection unit (FCU) and run cable up to the loft.

Dont forget the max you will be able to draw will be 13A.

You will need another FCU in the loft with a 3A fuse to switch on the lights.

The sockets can just go as a radial circuit. There's no point making it a ring - thats only used to make 2.5mm cable carry 32 amps and you wont be!

Re your loading, 13A will be fine.

1 amp at 12v draws approx 12/230 of an amp from the mains side. Assuming no transformer losses (for the clever dicks on this forum).

 

[josh1e]

thanks taylor / slup

i'm in the process to request permisson to do the works from my HA, although I wanted to make sure i had my facts straight about how / where i was taking the supply from & the load being placed & what my spur would be capable of taking. (all things they have disputed / given as reasons for a complete new circuit before)

easier to fight with them to get permission than have them pick up on it on a yearly inspection & get myself bent over a barrel & spanked for a tenancy breach etc...

thanks for the guidance & help with converting elv amps just writing it down in my notebook now

 

[josh1e]

can anyone please tell me, as a diy'er, should i provide any installation or test certificates to the housing association? would they ask for them? (they've hinted they would) if so what would they be? they've mentioned competent contractor..

I know i can install these safely & correctly as per the post above. (it would make the 1000th+ time i have as a diyer installed fused spurs, sockets, showers, etc... never with any faults or need to go back & rectify anything... (although it was only recently i learned there was more to being a diy'er than just doing it)

just want to make sure i can offer the HA any documentation they are likely to ask for before i start...

thanks.

 

[Taylortwocities]

If they own the property then they are probably entitled to expect that the work is done, and tested, correctly.

That'll mean you'd need to invest in the right test equip and the knowledge on how to drive it and interpret the results.

The results (if they meet the regulations) would be noted on a Minor Works Certificate that you sign to say that the work conplies with BS7671 (2008).

 

[josh1e]

thanks TTC,

I've seen "the right test equipment" anything upto £500. which is justifyable if i was testing alot of installs & may be a consideration in the future.

(saying that a £30 fluke meter in maplins says it is capable of doing 500v ir testing with an addon module, but no mention of the module or cost)

so would it be realistic based on the assumption that they will require certs for this work, that i could approach an electrician prior to the work, agree to do the work & then agree to pay him to then test it?

i suppose i'm asking is it allowed? i thought i read no one can certify someone else's work?

also, can you please confirm... if there is a current periodic inspection cert in place (done by the HA's own contractors (less than 3 weeks old) then what testing would need to be done on the work above?

also would it be worth adding certs required for minor work etc to the sticky's in the faq / wiki. i did look there but only helpful instructions on wiring etc.

thanks

 

[ban-all-sheds]

can anyone please tell me, as a diy'er, should i provide any installation or test certificates to the housing association? would they ask for them? (they've hinted they would) if so what would they be? they've mentioned competent contractor..

They will almost certainly (they should) insist that the work is done by someone who can prove his competence, i.e. who has formal qualifications. Which in practice will probably mean (as there's no realistic way they could manage any other sort of vetting) that they will insist that the work is done by someone who is registered with BSI/ECA/ELECSA/NAPIT/NICEIC...

No matter how competent you are, IMO there is no way that a Housing Association ought to put their property and other tenants' lives at risk by allowing someone to do electrical installation work just because they say "I know what I'm doing - look, I've got test equipment and a blank EIC ready to fill in".

 

[josh1e]

They will almost certainly (they should) insist that the work is done by someone who can prove his competence, i.e. who has formal qualifications. Which in practice will probably mean (as there's no realistic way they could manage any other sort of vetting) that they will insist that the work is done by someone who is registered with BSI/ECA/ELECSA/NAPIT/NICEIC...

while i understand, 17yrs doing electrical work is longer than some qualified sparks, so a bit unfair. also while no legal process that i know of allows them to enforce that i do not do any work, i shall continue to do so. I have NEVER been called back to ANY work, nor created a fault within or because of my work. I doubt "qualified" sparks can say the same... (no offence meant - just prooving my "competence")

No matter how competent you are, IMO there is no way that a Housing Association ought to put their property and other tenants' lives at risk by allowing someone to do electrical installation work just because they say "I know what I'm doing - look, I've got test equipment and a blank EIC ready to fill in".

Bas, its a good job you dont work for them then. I think that if IEE & local government can leave clauses in the regs for "competent" diy'ers AND those diy'ers are looking to better themselves, take time to check / ask questions on areas they are unsure (as do fully qualified sparks) then sometimes your a bit harsh with the negativity.

your advice is some of the best given & yet your quite personal in your hatred of anything diy.

how am i going to learn to use a 17th edition compliant test meter if i dont have one? how am i going to learn if i dont ask questions? and how am i going to get recognised with any scheme if i dont have hands on experience?

as in my other post.

I am not looking to self test or self certify at the moment, you've misread the post & gone off on one

 

[ColJack]

I don't think BAS went off on one this time..

he's merely trying to point out that from the HA's point ov view, if you put the new sockets in and the flat / house / whatever burns down, then they've got no one to blame but you and are unlikly to be able to get any cash out of you..

it may even stipulate in their insurance that they have to use a NICEIC (etc ) electrician to do works..

it's highly unlikely that your average DIYer will have any form of insuracnce to cover their work