Power shower with combi

[ericmark]

My parents have had a new central system fitted with a closed system combi boiler rather than the original open vented boiler.

The shower now seems to alternate between hot and cold it warms up as expected then cools down again before getting hot a second time.

It is a power shower and I thought one could not use a power shower with a combi boiler also since it is now connected direct to incoming cold water rather than from the cold water tank it can suck on incoming main I thought this was not allowed?

There is also a lack of any stop cocks other than the one on incoming main I would have expected to be able to isolate the shower as we could before and the hot water supply.

We asked for a programmable thermostat and got a thermostat and programmer and we can’t adjust the hot domestic water temperature independent to central heating water. Should a thermostatic mixing valve have been fitted? Remembering my Mother is in a wheel chair due to losing one leg and is as a result unable to react quickly to over hot water?

Thank you for any replies.

 

[swbjackson]

Get the installers back and get them to disconnect the shower asap. I've seen all in one power showers burst when mistakenly connected to a combi system.

 

[simond]

Firstly, you are correct that a pumped shower cannot be connected to a combination boiler, for all sorts of reasons. Your installer should have advised you of this.

You could try running your shower with the power disconnected as a first resort, some types sometimes work OK off a combi without the pump moving.

Regarding the room stat and isolation valves etc; I go to the trouble to give written quotes incorporating descriptions and pictures of all the major parts. Our customers could never be in any doubt what is included, I cannot see any reason for ambiguity.

If you have accepted a quote where the fitments have not been listed or manufacturers identified, then you must assume the cheapest solutions will be employed. I lose jobs from customers who simply look at the bottom line but don't check the detail, I am sure in common with many others here.

But it is often the customers that lose in the end, because the devil is in the detail.

So, in summary, it is all down to specification. If you were not given one, then you are not in a good position to complain afterwards.

 

[0161coop]

The water regulations do not allow a pump connected to the mains to draw more than 12 litres per minute unless permission has been granted in writing from the water supplier. Most shower pumps would draw more than this and the solution would be to supply hot and cold from a cistern - So it sounds like your boiler installer dropped a clanger - he should have pointed this out to you before fitting the boiler! If you have a bidet then its probably a double clanger. Since you can either have the combi or the shower pump, but not both you probably need a new shower (or just disconnect the pump). Try asking the boiler installer for a deal as he didn't point out the probem beforehand.

There is no legal requirement to fit isolating valves to a shower although it would be good practise.

There is no legal requirement in Englnd or Wales to fit thermostatic mixing valves to baths or showers athough I believe that most (or perhaps ALL) social housing is being retro fitted with TMV's as best practise. I wouldn't expect to fit a TMV as part of a boiler change unless the customer requested it.

As for not being able to alter hot water temperature - what make/ model is the new boiler?

 

[simond]

Worth adding here that the water regulations do not permit you to add pumps directly to the mains, whether under 12 litres per min or not.

Units designed to connect directly to the mains are far and few between, and have to pass some very onerous testing and certification.

We fit such devices and even the relative heights of the pipework on the wall forms part of the approval process.

The manufacturer of the equipment we fit took two years getting it through the approvals, and a lot of R&D investment. And it pumps less than 12 l/m.....

 

[ericmark]

Thank you all for the replies. I did point out to the Installers before they started the job that there was a power shower and since there were already two electric showers I suggested an open vented system should be installed.

Because the system is in the main paid for by the council it is the council who have received the contract which makes it hard to tie them down.

I did realise they intended to fit a wireless thermostat without any programming so I talked to council and firm and it was agreed they would fit a programmable thermostat. However on returning I found a programmer and thermostat so unless built in it will also need a froststat.

They ripped out the triple and earth supplying the thermostat and used wireless which seemed a complete waist of money.

They have not made good floors etc. in a few areas. They were quick but after that not such a good installation. Used 15mm for most which is all surface it does not lend itself to neatness.

Anyway armed with info you have given me I think I have a good chance to get it put right.

Thank you

 

[bengasman]

Councils, like virtually all government sections, tend to work on putting work up for tender, and go with either the cheapest quote, or the biggest backhander that can be worked out legally.
It all comes down to the same old principal: you get what you pay for. Chances are they installed a vokera or ideal, didn't do the wiring up to spec, didn't clean the system properly, didn't balance properly, didn't check for leaks or bits about to fail etc. etc.
But it was certainly cheap.

 

[ericmark]

Councils, like virtually all government sections, tend to work on putting work up for tender, and go with either the cheapest quote, or the biggest backhander that can be worked out legally.
It all comes down to the same old principal: you get what you pay for. Chances are they installed a vokera or ideal,

Worcester fitted

didn't do the wiring up to spec,

Can't find anything wrong wired back to consumer unit which did surprise me. But thermostat is wireless.

didn't clean the system properly,

They did put some cleaning fluid through the system drained and then re-filled with an inhibitor.

didn't balance properly,

They didn't balance full stop I expect come winter I will have to do that!

didn't check for leaks

They did have a problem leak and after install the pressure has remained stable

or bits about to fail etc. etc.

They insisted that all the plastic pipe had to be removed and said the insurance would not now allow plastic pipe they reused two towel rails which were 3 years old everything else renewed. But they moved the shower piped in plastic from a gravity open vent system to mains pressure and that was all plastic pipe. When queried they said insurance allowed plastic on existing systems!

But it was certainly cheap.

All I know is the extra paid for the extra radiators requested for example one in airing cupboard so it could continue to be used as such.

I was surprised when the Plumber fitted a plug to the boiler to commission it prior to Electrician arriving and leaving it running over the weekend on a plug top. As we all know anything fixed in a Kitchen needs Part P registration even if powered with a 13A plug I would have expected the Electrician to arrive on same day!

 

[bengasman]

Which model worcester? Junior by any chance, or cdi?

 

[ericmark]

Junior

Not happy as I had previously fitted a motorised valve and a wireless thermostat to cistern because my mother with one leg can't react quick enough if the water is too hot and I had reduced the temperature of the domestic water.

Maybe in hind sight I should have used a thermostatic mixing valve as could have been set under the 55 degs but to see it all throw away and a system with again no control on domestic hot water is very frustrating.

Seems central heating water and domestic water have to be same temperature with this boiler so central heating now running out at around 60 degrees C which I have a feeling will fail to heat house.

 

[bengasman]

Junior

Still have to see the first one that is installed to spec. Yours does not seem to be the exception. They are favoured by installers who like to cut corners. Get heating insurance the moment the warrantee runs out.

 

[ericmark]

The installers have agreed to meet me on Monday morning I will up date on what they agree or refuse to do.
I have 5 points to raise.

1) Power shower needs to be replaced with mixer suitable for mains pressure.
2) A thermostatic mixing valve needs fitting.
3) Query on stop cocks at least replace those removed.
4) A programmer and thermostat have been fitted instead of a programmable thermostat.
5) Boards around and in old airing cupboard need replacing.

I will tell you what I get. I expect I may be asked to pay for extra parts!

 

[simond]

If they didn't formally quote to;

- replace shower
- Fit TMV

Then I think you should expect to pay for parts and labour.

The other matters are reasonable to expect resolution without payment.

No doubt you will receive a cheap and horrible programmable room thermostat if you upset them.

When complaining it is best to be reasonable, and stick to asking for things that you are entitled to; these would in your case definitely be what you accepted the quote for.

Things that 'you thought' should be in the quote are best negotiated before the work starts.

When an installer provides a quote we often think 'if we include this excellent thermostat (or other premium part)' it will improve the job but raise the price. Most diligent installers want to give the best job but need to win the work. I often lose a job where the customer has accepted a third rate set of parts but says it is the same specification.

Customers who skip the detail but look at the bottom line should not be surprised when they do not get what they were expecting. Detail detail detail.

 

[BingoBongo]

i think a programmer and room stat are standard on eaga/council installs.

a tmv wasnt specified or asked for prior to installation

i do think you have reason to be unhappy about the power shower as the knew before starting the job and no suitable or safe conclusion has been met.at best they should have capped off the shower and advised on a suitable outcome

 

[bengasman]

i think a programmer and room stat are standard on eaga/council installs.

One would hope so as they are kind of needed if you want to comply with building regs.

When you get three and a half grand for a straight boiler swap, it shouldn't be asking too much to get something that at least is compliant.