Strange LPG Issue - Not sure who to call...

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Morning All,

I have a slightly strange issue with my LPG boiler, but I'm not entirely sure what sort of 'gasman' to call out to it. I'm also a bit nervous about calling people out to a fault that is 99% likely not to be doing it when they get here, but here goes:

I have a 7 year old British Gas (Worcester) condensing boiler, that is supplied by 4 x 47kg LPG cylinders at the far end of the garden, with the pipe routed underground. It did have a lot of work done on it this summer, to try and chase down an EA-Flame Failure issue, but I do not think that is related. It has a green light on it that indicates when the flame is 'on'. I also have a gas hob, which I use and refer to below to try and give some idea of what is going on with my gas supply.

I now have problems with the boiler not firing up in the mornings and then going EA again. When I eventually get it on, it stays on, but sometimes that is not without a fight. The problems seem to fit into two categories:

1) EA Flame Failure. If I try the gas on the hob, it comes on, but seems to be a weak flame. It also smells of 'fumes' more than usual. When I try resetting the boiler, I sometimes don't even get the green light coming on before it gives up and goes back to the EA state. It seems to be an issue on cold mornings especially and, as per this morning, just will not light at all. Last time it was as bad as today, it did come back to life and was resettable by about 11am. Even though the gas seems weak at the hob, I can light up all 5 rings, and the flame doesn't seem to get any weaker the more rings that go on.

2) EA Flame Failure. If I try the gas on the hob, none comes out and when I check the bottles, the OPSO valve reset has popped out. If I reset it and go back to the hob, sometimes all is fine and sometimes the flame burns very fiercely for a couple of seconds and then goes off and the OPSO needs resetting again. Eventually I will get it back to a normal flame and the boiler can be reset.

My concern is more with scenario 1 at the moment. It almost feels like the LPG supply has frozen and I just can't get enough through the pipes to fire up my boiler. Often when it does fire up, there will be a large vibration at the boiler about twenty minutes later.

As mentioned above, I'm not wholly sure if what sort of gas engineer I need out to this. Given the likelihood that they will turn up and all will be working, I don't want to just be told that it seems a bit weird and to wait until it breaks properly.

Any ideas ? Is there anything safe and legal that I can try in order to eliminate possibilities or at least try and track down whereabouts in the system it is happening ?
 
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If you are getting faults at both appliances it would seem to point to a supply issue.

There's are so many variables to consider and you need to supply us with the site parameters, if you know them?

Length of garden;
Topography of garden;
Length of pipe run;
Bore of gas pipe;
Gas pipe material;
Depth it has been laid;
Bottle connections (regulators etc);
What was done to rectify previous issue;
Etc etc...
 
It may be that the feed pipe is contaminated with something! Maybe condensation that is freezing during cold spells!?

It would seem that a way to rule this out would be to install a temporary bypass supply pipe and see if the problem persists.

But you would need an LPG RGI for that!
 
If you are getting faults at both appliances it would seem to point to a supply issue.

There's are so many variables to consider and you need to supply us with the site parameters, if you know them?

Length of garden;
Topography of garden;
Length of pipe run;
Bore of gas pipe;
Gas pipe material;
Depth it has been laid;
Bottle connections (regulators etc);
What was done to rectify previous issue;
Etc etc...


Thanks.

The garden is about 60 ft long. I used to have a bulk LPG tank but then it got replaced with four bottles about two years ago. There were never any problems with either the bulk LPG tank, or the bottles last year (and possibly the year before that - I can't remember exactly when they went in)

The pipe is metal above ground and plastic below (in my layman's terms) and runs from the back corner of the garden, down the side of the garden where it resurfaces at the side of the house where it is split and taken to the entry points for the hob and the boiler. When the bulk LPG tank was replaced, they were happy with the rest of the run and left it where it was, so I have no idea about the depth etc.

At the bottle end, there are four flexible hoses, attached to one of these - http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/store/category/1613/product/m59/4.aspx
 
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It may be that the feed pipe is contaminated with something! Maybe condensation that is freezing during cold spells!?

It would seem that a way to rule this out would be to install a temporary bypass supply pipe and see if the problem persists.

But you would need an LPG RGI for that!

That is exactly what it 'feels' like to be honest.

In terms of who I need for that, what sort of person do I need to look for. Can my normal boilerman do it, or would I need a slightly different discipline ?
 
If he has an LPG ticket he can 'work' on it... the rest is down to his experience!
If he's local, why not ask him to have a look when you know the issue is likely to occur? I can't see a chat over the phone being a problem if you have a rapport with him - just ask him what he thinks and if he'll come have a look! If he's not confident he'll likely be able to recommend/bring someone with him! (y)
 
Thanks Dilalio...

A quick update, but based on your mention of condensation etc., I just tried boiling a kettle and pouring it on various places. When I poured it onto the changeover switch then I heard a click and normal service seems to be resumed, so I guess that is somewhere he can start :) I might just leave my heating 'on' rather than on timer for a bit, just to see if that helps too.
 
Bugger, Just read this thread and was going to suggest taking all bottles off supply and just using the one to rule out faulty valves or proving a faulty OPSO.
 
Sound like you are close to resolving your problem, but I'll share my experience.
I have a bulk tank and a long underground run at high pressure, with the final reducing regulator installed in a box on the house wall.
I had issues with the regulator at the house tripping, it has a pressure sensitive diaphragm. Reset it and it was OK for a while.
This happened only in cold freezing weather. I lagged up the assembly on the bulk tank and it improved a bit.
The head assembly on the bulk tank was replaced and all was fine. I think the assembly had moisture in it and was freeezing.
I would expect your problem to be worse if you leave the heating on, as the evaporation of gas at the tanks will make everything much colder.
 
Bugger, Just read this thread and was going to suggest taking all bottles off supply and just using the one to rule out faulty valves or proving a faulty OPSO.

Sound like you are close to resolving your problem, but I'll share my experience.
I have a bulk tank and a long underground run at high pressure, with the final reducing regulator installed in a box on the house wall.
I had issues with the regulator at the house tripping, it has a pressure sensitive diaphragm. Reset it and it was OK for a while.
This happened only in cold freezing weather. I lagged up the assembly on the bulk tank and it improved a bit.
The head assembly on the bulk tank was replaced and all was fine. I think the assembly had moisture in it and was freeezing.
I would expect your problem to be worse if you leave the heating on, as the evaporation of gas at the tanks will make everything much colder.

Thanks both...

If the changeover switch does have moisture in, then is there any solution other than changing it ? Can a gas engineer take it off and dry it out somehow ?
 
Removing and drying out may be possible but you would have no warranty on it from happening again if it were me. I would be looking for how the moisture got in in the first place. Faulty seals maybe? Careless installation? Would really need to see it to be sure but for the cost I would replace rather than pay time for repairs that may not work if other faults are at cause.

That is if that is the fault! It's yet to be proven but you seem to be on the right track and would give a good engineer something to work with.

Where are you as there may be someone on here near you willing to take a look.

Jon
 
Sounds like you need a new regulator to me. There's no sense trying to dry it out, you'd need special equipment and it'd end up costing more than a new regulator would...they aren't that expensive
 
My first thought in reading the OP was : COValve. As the thread progressed, then it has become an almost certainty. To be sure, set up a single bottle, without the COV and see what happens. I suppose there could be condensation in the pigtails, but for £100 - £200 for a COV and new pigtails is worth the risk. IMO
 

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