Tile Grouting

[russellm72]

Hi,

I want to regrout some tiles round my shower/bath that have become a bit dull looking. I have never grouted before but am keen on some useful advice.

I have a grout rake and I was going to take off a layer and simply grout over the top after cleaning with methylated spirits or something to ensure clean, dry and particulate free. Is there a special type of grout on the market that is resistant (maybe not totally but better) to mildew/mould growth? Any tips to get a nice smooth consistent finish.

Many Thanks for any advice in advance.

Regards

Russell.

 

[Nestor_Kelebay]

You can buy epoxy grouts which don't dry porous and therefore don't provide a good strong foothold for mildew to grab onto. The reason why mildew is hard to clean off of regular cement based grouts is that these grouts are porous and the mildew grows right inside the porous surface of the grout where it's protected by the grout from being scrubbed off or washed off by a shower spray.

I own a 21 unit apartment block in Winnipeg, and I can tell you that you could probably clean the mildew off of your grout much better than you're currently expecting if you know how to clean grout properly. I would try a real good cleaning before replacing ANY grout, and then JUST REPLACE THE GROUT YOU CAN'T GET CLEAN.

To do that, proceed as follows:

1. Buy some PHOSPHORIC acid based toilet bowl cleaner. Phosphoric acid will not harm glazed ceramic tiles, but it will dissolve grout to an imperceptable extent. Also, since toilet bowl cleaners will be gelled to stick to the side of the bowl better, they will stick to ceramic tiled walls better too. Also, buy some stronger acid, like CLR cleaner or Limeaway in case you need to dissolve more grout.

2. Buy a rubber squeegee and a fairly stiff toothbrush if you don't have an old one. Get some bleach, too.

3. Also, go to your local Home Center and see if you can find a good quality ACRYLIC grout sealer. Stay away from any silicon based grout sealers. Phone any Customer Service phone number on the grout sealer to confirm with the company that it's an ACRYLIC grout sealer.

Here's what you do:

A. Paint the gelled toilet bowl cleaner onto a small area of tile with a paint brush, and then squeegee that area to redistribute the cleaner only into the grout lines. Scrub those areas with the toothbrush. That will kill the mildew and dissolve the surface of the grout whose porous surface is all plugged up with soap scum and mildew. By opening up that surface porosity, you allow the grout to wick in bleach in the next step. Rinse off with clean water and towel dry. The better you can dry the grout, the greater the capillary pressure will be in the next step, and the more successful will be your cleaning effort.

B. Now, use an artist's paint brush (or your toothbrush) to paint bleach straight out of the jug on the cleaned grout lines. Capillary pressure will draw the bleach in to kill any remaining mildew in the surface of the grout. This process takes time, and I find that sometimes I'll have to reapply the bleach every hour or two for several hours (or even leave it on overnight). The bleach will whiten the grout. Once the grout is white to your satisfaction, rinse the grout with clean water to remove the bleach from the surface. If it's not white to your satisfaction, try a stronger acid to open up the surface porosity more, rinse and apply bleach again. If you still can't get it clean, then replace that grout.

C. After rinsing off the bleach and allowing time to dry, use an artist's paint brush to apply acrylic grout sealer over that grout. Since that grout sealer is gonna stick better if it partially wicks into the porous grout, it's best to apply the grout sealer when the grout is as dry as possible. What I do is hold a 15 watt light and a small cup of grout sealer in one hand and the brush in the other. I can tell by the way light reflects off the surface I'm painting whether or not the surface is fully covered and whether the acrylic sealer is gradually being wicked into the porous grout.

D. Now, replace any grout you couldn't get clean. Allow that a minimum of 10 days to dry, and then seal it with the acrylic sealer.

By doing it this way, you put a clear plastic acrylic raincoat over your grout which the mildew can't get any foothold in. Also, the acrylic sealer will eventually erode from the shower spray, but in my 21 bathrooms, the stuff has lasted me 15 years and counting. And, once it does wear off, you can repeat the procedure and you're good for another 15 years.

Take a look at my web site at:

http://www.ilos.net/~nkelebay

Click on Suite 21, then click on the bathroom on the floor plan image map and look at the bathroom in that suite. I don't remember how long ago I tiled that bathroom, but it was a minimum of 10 years since it's got small tiles in it. (I've used 6X8 tiles for all my tiling for AT LEAST 10 years now, probably closer to 15.) There is no mildew on that bathroom or on any grout in any of my 21 bathrooms cuz of using an acrylic sealer over my grout.

 

[Nestor_Kelebay]

Russell:
I'm wondering if the lack of any response to my post is due to the fact that you don't know how to respond since you asked for tips on grouting and I gave you tips on cleaning. Sorry.

Post again if you want me to give you some tips on regrouting. I've tiled 21 bathrooms in my own building, and also bathrooms in the homes of relatives, too. I can give you instructions on grouting that will both avoid potential problems and ensure you get better results easier, too.

Just last night I found some pictures that I took about 5 years ago after some tenants moved out. I rented an apartment to 2 Chinese guys, and before long there were 4 living in that apartment, and all of them were showering several times a day. When they vacated, I was quite concerned I might have to redo that bathroom tiling because of the mildew growing on it. So, I took a "before" picture of it so that I could tell how much of a difference the cleaning made. Then I cleaned it according to the instructions in my last post. The "after" picture looks just like a new bathroom. (BUT, this bathroom had a coat of acrylic sealer applied to it to begin with before those people moved in, and that would help prevent penetration of the mildew into the grout. Still, most of the acrylic sealer must have been eroded away because the mildew staining on the grout is considerable in the "before" picture.)

If anyone can explain how I can post these pictures in this forum, I'll be glad to share it with you all.

If you will trust me that the "after" picture is truly a picture of that same bathroom after cleaning and not a "before" picture before I rented the apartment, then I think you'll be surprised at how much difference a good cleaning will make to the appearance of your ceramic tile.

But, I remain ready to provide instructions on grouting should you want to proceed along that course instead.

 

[braychurchmouse]

Nestor...great tips re cleaning. Just a couple of comments. I used epoxy grout once in my kitchen and it has certainly resisted mould...but then the previous grout didn't get mouldy either so I dont have a valid comparison. What I did find though, is that it seems to have discoloured (ie gone a bit biege-like, rather faster than ordinary grout in other parts of the house. Maybe down to cooking I guess, but I was a bit disappointed.

However the main thing to warn newbies (I'm "slightly" newbie myself!) is that epoxy grout, in my experience, is much more difficult to apply. The one I used was a two pack system that had a very limited working period once mixed...I think from memory it was only 10-15 minutes. Now I know a professional can probably grout a whole wall in 15 mins but as an amateur I found I wasted a lot (and its quite expensive) because it went off before I could apply it and wipe down. I finished up carefully measuring the smaller quantities required for about 10 minutes work.

Maybe there are simpler epoxy grouts, but mine was a real palava.

Oh yes, and to the original poster...be careful when raking out grout, if thats the option you take. Whenever I have tried it, I found it was very easy to chip off a small sliver of the edge of the tile with the rake, which really messes up the appearence of the tiling.

 

[joe-90]

Nestor. Do you own that apartment block or just look after it? Just wondering.



joe

 

[Nestor_Kelebay]

Braychurchmouse:
I've never used epoxy grout, but I've heard that it used to be very user-unfriendly. I've hear that that situation has changed over the past 5 to 10 years or so and that the new epoxy grouts are much easier to work with. Apparantly, Mapei now also even makes a "cleaner" for removing dried epoxy grout.
But, your point is extremely well taken. One of the reasons why epoxy grouts were never as popular even amongst the pros was because they weren't as easy to work with, and that's something a newbie needs to be warned of.
Not sure if the yellowing would be the epoxy itself turning color. Have you tried applying some bleach to it?

Joe:
Nope, I own that building. If I was the caretaker I wouldn't take nearly as good care of it as I do. Do you like the work I do? (What you can see of it in the picture, I mean.)

 

[empip]

A bit late.
Nestor ref posting pictures ... One way is to use the likes of the following web site to 'host' your image(s)
http://imagehost.darkernet.co.uk/index.php
The service is free up to 100kb file size per picture.
Upload the picture file, wait until they return the address of that file, then copy and paste between the image tags in your post :-

There are other methods.. pics hosting or own web server is normal

You do have your own web site so if your pictures exist there you can post a link using the image 'tags' to contain the address and file name

Here is the address of DiyNot help on posting images.
//www.diynot.com/forums/faq.php?mode=bbcode#9

As an example this is the address and file name of a picture actually heading this site.
//www.diynot.com/img/diy1.gif

To display it place the image tags front and back from buttons above the Editor window ..( If they work in your browser ), type the tags in if not.

This gets you ...

If you have read this post, hit the 'quote' button and take a look at the layout in the editor.

 

[Nestor_Kelebay]

I'll see if I can upload the picture I'm talking about onto my web site tonight. (Both the "before" and "after" images were put onto the same file by a guy working at an electronics store for me.)

And, when you see those pictures, I swear that the "after" image is really an "after" cleaning picture, and not a "before renting the suite" picture.

Lemme see if I have time to do that tonight...

 

[Nestor_Kelebay]

Empip:

OK, I uploaded that file to my web site.

Go to my web site at:

http://www.ilos.net/~nkelebay

The dash under the word "Suite 21" is now a link. If you click on it, you'll get that file with both the before and after pictures. But, be patient because the file is almost a whole megabyte in size, so it may take a few minutes to appear.

You can tell that it's an after picture because if you look close, there's mildew on the silicon caulk in the corner and other places. If that picture was taken when the tiling was still recently done, the silicon caulk wouldn't have any mildew on it.

When I first saw that bathroom, I didn't know if I was going to be able to clean the mildew off. But I was able to get it looking the way you see in the lower image by following the procedure described earlier in this thread. The trick is to allow the grout to dry as much as possible before applying the bleach and before applying an acrylic sealer. That's because the dryer the grout, the greater the capillary pressure drawing both bleach and acrylic grout sealer into the grout. With deeper penetration of the bleach, you get the grout whiter. Also, with deeper penetration of the grout sealer into the grout, you get better adhesion of the sealer to the grout.

 

[empip]

Ok Nestor, downloaded file.
Reduced size to 11x16cm, saved with JPEG quality factor of 50% using MS Photo Edito.

Uploaded to free Hosting site
Here it is all 24 KB !! of it :-

Impressive results ....

 

[Nestor_Kelebay]

Thanks, empip. Couldn't have said it any better myself.

As the owner of a small apartment block, much of the work I do involves cleaning in one form or another. And, I've found that by learning more about the materials I use in my building, I've been able to solve a lot more building problems than I expect most other small landlords do.

However, besides advising everyone to learn as much as they can about the materials they use in their DIY work, the one tip I can pass along to people about cleaning is to BUY THEIR CLEANING SUPPLIES FROM A JANITORIAL SUPPLY OUTLET.

Any of the places listed under "Janitorial Supplies & Equipment" in your phone directory WILL sell directly to you because they will all sell their products to the local cleaning contractors, school board custodians, hospital cleaning staff, civic centers, etc. who don't in turn sell retail to you. Consequently, none of their regular customers is going to bark at them for stealing his retail business.

By purchasing from a janitorial supply store instead of a grocery or hardware store, the advantage you have is that you get all the free technical advice on what to do and how to do it thrown in free of charge from someone who's spent a career dealing with cleaning chemicals and cleaning professionals. Unless that person has a learning disorder, he's bound to have learned some things about the cleaning problem you're facing that he'd almost certainly be happy to pass along to you.

If you can, look for a Janitorial Supply outlet that also operates a janitorial SERVICE business on the side. Many of them will. That is, they operate a cleaning service to clean homes, stores and office buildings, but also sell their cleaning products to the local cleaning professionals (like carpet cleaning contractors or window cleaners) in your area. That way, if the guy behind the counter doesn't know how best to answer your questions, he'll know who to send you to in the service side of the business who'll have much more experience than him actually using the product he thinks will work for you.

If you have a carpet cleaning problem, phone around to the carpet cleaners in your town and ask them which of the janitorial supply outlets have the most knowledgeable people in that regard, and who to talk to at each place. If you have a general house cleaning problem, phone around to find out which of the janitorial supply stores also operate a service company that does house cleaning. If none of them do, phone the maid services in your area and find out which of the janitorial supply outlets have the most knowledgeable staff, and who to talk to at each place.

In the janitorial service sector, the only person a professional cleaning contractor has to turn to for help is either the sales rep of the company who's products he's using or the guy in the janitorial supply outlet that sells him his cleaners. As a result, it's the people working in the counter at the janitorial supply outlets that become involved in helping to solve difficult cleaning problems, and they also pass along what they've learned to other cleaning professionals facing the same or similar problems.

This is a free and valuable resource that most people simply don't realize is available to them. Now you do.