Water Based Gloss - Johnstones Aqua -vs- Dulux Ecosure??

[CluelessDIYer1]

Undecided between these two.

As i've mentioned before, we're going to gloss - skirting, door frames, stairs bannister etc.

I went away to read in to decent w/b glosses on the market & came back with the Johnstones one & the Dulux one, so i then tried to see what gets better reviews & from my reading there seems a 50/50 mix.

I've read the Johnstones one getting panned - poor quality etc, but also people getting giddy over it. Likewise the Dulux.

I did a bit more googling & found the price for the two @ 2.5L format wasn't a million miles apart. I can't find that website now but it's late & i'll look another time.

For either i would use their water based undercoat. So if buying Johnstones i would get the Johnstones undercoat, if the Dulux top coat i'd get the Dulux undercoat.


So on to the question...

As you guys will have infinitely more wisdom than I, what is the better product & why? Or is there naff all difference between the two?

If it matters with your response then i'm a novice painter.

Thanks.

 

[dcdec]

Aqua

 

[emilybronte]

Aqua

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

Out of interest - why? Am interested in knowing the reason behind your selection.

 

[emilybronte]

Out of interest - why? Am interested in knowing the reason behind your selection.

Johnstone's put more R & D into new paints prior to 2010. It's a good system which produces as smooth, solid and tough finish.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

Which is the up to date tin of Johnstones Aqua?

Unless i'm missing something they both claim to be the exact same thing, just different packaging.

I'm guessing the first one is the most up to date version & the one i should be buying? With reading that the qualities seem to be changing all the time i don't want to buy one if it's not as good as the other.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

So i bought some of this in & gave it a whirl tonight.

It says you need to stir it, so i bought a cheap paddle/stirrer thing for the drill.

Got cracking tonight. Stirred it quite some. I don't know if you can over-stir (if you can i probably did), but then it does say stir well.
I don't know if you're supposed to rub the surface with a damp sponge when undercoating & dampen the bristles, but i did this. I wasn't sure if it was a top coat thing or whether it also applied to the primer. The bristles weren't sopping. I just wet them & shook it off. The sponge wasn't dripping, it was squeezed out.

I noticed an instant difference - this primer was like water!!!! This is why i say i'm not sure if i should've dampened the surface/bristles or whether i'm not sure if i over-stirred the primer.

The only problem with applying this stuff was that it was just so watery, so was running about all over the place.

If that's quite normal for this primer then all is well. If not then i've done something wrong.





It also says you can re-coat after 4-6 hours. Does this apply for switching from primer>top coat?
Reason i ask is i was planning on a 2nd covering of primer at 7am, which by the time i've had dinner should've maxed their 4-6 hour re-coat time slot. I was wondering if it'd then be good to hit with top coat, or whether extra time needs to be left for switching from under to top coat?

 

[emilybronte]

What exactly are you using as 'primer' (ie the coat put directly onto bare wood)?

If there is no bare wood you do not need a primer, but an undercoat. This is the one which goes with the Johnstones waterbased system and whcih I recommend:

http://www.decoratingwarehouse.co.u...undercoat/31?gclid=CMHS56vXlr0CFU3HtAodiH0Agw

Primer (in the sense I mean it, see above) can seem quite thin, but once you have put undercoat on top the effect should be opaque, ready for the top coat (of eggshell, satinwood or gloss).

Or by 'primer' do you just mean the first coat (asopposed to subsequent coats) of ANY paint? Please clarify.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

What exactly are you using as 'primer' (ie the coat put directly onto bare wood)?

If there is no bare wood you do not need a primer, but an undercoat. This is the one which goes with the Johnstones waterbased system and whcih I recommend:

http://www.decoratingwarehouse.co.u...undercoat/31?gclid=CMHS56vXlr0CFU3HtAodiH0Agw

Primer (in the sense I mean it, see above) can seem quite thin, but once you have put undercoat on top the effect should be opaque, ready for the top coat (of eggshell, satinwood or gloss).

Or by 'primer' do you just mean the first coat (asopposed to subsequent coats) of ANY paint? Please clarify.

Sorry. This is where my lack of knowledge is exposing me

I thought primer & undercoat were one & the same thing. I guess not.

I decided to start afresh. I had hit the wood with oil based Crown undercoat & then Crown water based non drip satin on top, but it was hellish to work with with my lack of experience/knowledge.
So i heat gunned it all off back to the wood with view to starting again.

I ordered in the undercoat that you linked just there & also the water based gloss by Johnstones that goes with it (the blue tin, not the black tin in the images i posted).

I dampened the wooden surface with a sponge. There was barely any water in this sponge, it was just enough to put a bit of moisture on top of the wood. I then applied the undercoat to the bare wood. It was quite watery when it went on.

This morning i went again. Dampened the bristles of the brush, shook it off. I then applied the undercoat (this is probably where you say you don't need 2 coats of undercoat?) but without dampening the wood. The paint, while runny in the tin, went on much thicker...
...it was also slightly more difficult to work with than last night when i dampened the wood.

So, i did the sponge thing again & it went really watery on the wood.

Not sure if i should continue doing that, i went dry.

The reason i dampened the wood is i was advised when applying the satin to just dampen the surface a little to stop it drying out too quick. I wasn't sure if this applied to water based undercoat too or not (whether i should do it), so i took a gamble.


Hope this clarifies what i was trying to describe last night. Sorry. I'm now off to google the difference between primer & undercoat

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

Well i've googled & it seems i've made a mistake, again

http://www.wickes.co.uk/help+advice/frequently-asked-questions/pcat/paintfaqs/

What is the difference between primer and undercoat?

Primer stops residue from seeping out of a substrate, thus preventing discolouration once the topcoat has been applied. Undercoat helps level the surface of the substrate and also helps block out strong colours before application of the topcoat.
When and why is using a primer important?

Priming a surface blocks out stains, provides a good base for a topcoat and ensures maximum adhesion to the surface being painted.

In general, priming is essential when:

The surface is porous in any way (i.e. it absorbs moisture such as wood).
The surface has never been painted before.
The surface contains substances which can bleed through (e.g. dirt, tobacco stains, tannins in woods such as mahogany).

It seems i shouldn't be putting undercoat on & instead i should prime it first.

Which brings me to ask - do you go primer > undercoat > top coat?

If so, what sort of primer are we looking at? The undercoat i'd used previously was http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/paint-...t-Pure-Brilliant-White-10298717?skuId=9260133 which is solvent based.

It had been painted before we got the house. There are knots in the wood if this matters. We were also going to paint the door frames. We've stripped 2 of them back to wood, so again, is this primer>undercoat>top coat?

One day i'll get there


EDIT: More googling has people saying "primer/undercoat". I see you can get them as an all-in-one, but what i have now is an undercoat which i don't want to have wasted money on.
Just wondering what primer i should now buy so i don't have this undercoat as wasted.

 

[emilybronte]

Yes, the order is : primer, undercoat, top coat(s).

There are indeed combined primer-undercoats; they tend to be water-based and are intended for use under water based topcoats (like the Jonstone's Aqua gloss you already have).

In most domestic painting situations you don't need a primer as well as an undercoat unless you are working with bare wood or a porous surface which would benefit from sealing before topcoats are applied.

The primer youi used before (the oil based Crown) would have been OK - there was probably no need to burn it all off again. As long as it is bone dry and sanded well before undercoat is applied, that's the main thing. That said, in an ideal world, it is best to stick to one paint system (oil based or water based) and not mix and match unless you really know what you're doing.

So, if you are back to the bare wood, you could get a tin of this stuff:

http://www.tools-paint.com/johnstones-joncryl-water-based-primer-white-6941-p.asp

and put that on first. Then sand lightly by hand, wipe dust off with a damp rag, dry, then apply the undercoat. When that's dry, repeat the light abrading and wiping (you should do this in between every coat of paint, really), then apply two coats of the gloss (leaving it to dry in between, obviously).

The good thing about water based paints is that they dry very quickly - you only need to wait a couple of hours in between coats, usually.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

Oh dear, what a div i feel now. On the plus side, for all those who've been telling me i look too much into things, this is proof i don't look enough as i got it wrong.

You say...

The primer youi used before (the oil based Crown) would have been OK

It wasn't primer though.

It was: http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/paint-...t-Pure-Brilliant-White-10298717?skuId=9260133 Crown [oil based] Undercoat.

We only really have B&Q that sells all this type of stuff, so i went on the hunt today & found this: http://www.diy.com/nav/decor/paint-...ercoat-in-White-250ml-13199095?skuId=13679799 although i've linked you to the 250ml version, it was the 750ml version on the shelf.

I don't know if it's any good, but it appealed as it deals with knots, which we have a few of. Here's a shot of the upper edge of just one frame:


The problem is though:
1) It'd £15 for 750ml. Quite dear.
2) It's knot solution, primer AND undercoat, which while handy, i guess it renders the £30ish Johnstones Aqua undercoat totally useless.

there was probably no need to burn it all off again

Oh really, you should've seen the finish i had with the satin. It was appalling. I couldn't just burn a layer or two off, the whole thing had to go.

That said, in an ideal world, it is best to stick to one paint system

I used the oil based undercoat on the windowledge with water based satin on top. I don't know why, but i got a good finish on there, whereas a poor finish on the larger piece i was painting. Maybe because it was so small so i did well & it didn't have the same time to dry out. Maybe the wood was different, i don't know.

It does make me wonder though - do i need to go with primer, or could i get away with the crown solvent based undercoat?

So, if you are back to the bare wood, you could get a tin of this stuff:

http://www.tools-paint.com/johnstones-joncryl-water-based-primer-white-6941-p.asp[/QUOTE]Out of interest, what would you then do with the Aqua undercoat i've bought at £30ish? I'm getting the increasing feeling it's been a total waste of money

I'm used to the sanding between layering process. I've painted a fair few bits for the car. They were much easier though as it was all rattle cans, but i could get the finish looking good. Finding it harder in the house though lol.

 

[emilybronte]

I am afraid that I am beginning to lose the will to live.

 

[CluelessDIYer1]

I am afraid that I am beginning to lose the will to live.

Why so?

TBH i think that's quite rude.

I appreciate the help you & others give, but are you trying to say i shouldn't respond? Is that not how discussions go?

Usually, the way forums work, you'll take what i just said offensively/to heart & retaliate. I hope not as it's not meant in such a way. At no point have i been unpleasant towards you. I'm just saying i don't see what the problem is.

 

[emilybronte]

I am afraid that I am beginning to lose the will to live.

Why so?

TBH i think that's quite rude.

I appreciate the help you & others give, but are you trying to say i shouldn't respond? Is that not how discussions go?

Usually, the way forums work, you'll take what i just said offensively/to heart & retaliate. I hope not as it's not meant in such a way. At no point have i been unpleasant towards you. I'm just saying i don't see what the problem is.

There was no intention to be rude, and I don't think you are deliberately being obtuse, but if you read the thread from the start you will perhaps see what I mean. Whatever advice you are given, you come up with something else you have rushed off and done (for no good reason!) which means the advice has to be modifed or thrown out and begun again.

You are making it all far more complicated than it is. Just go back and read the principles which I've explained to you then decide what point you need to start at.

You don't need an expensive knotting compound-primer combined, as the wood has already been painted at least once in the past. It's only new wood with untreated knots which needs knotting compound.

As far as your tin of Jonnos u/c goes, keep it and use it on all the woodwork in your house after you have sanded it down but before the top coat (of gloss).

Good luck with your decorating.