What vehicle(s) do you drive on a regular basis?

[Brigadier]

what on earth are you going on about

I will try and put some figures on it - a medium size EV car will emit around 12 tonne of CO2 in its cradle to gate production

My old van (never goes near a big town or city) 1.6hdi averages around 60mpg and I cover 3500 mile per year
there is about 2.6kg of co2 in a litre of diesel
3500 / 60 / 0.22 * 2.6 = 670kg of co2

if i trade my perfectly functioning van in for and EV (to be green) it will be 12 / 0.67 =18 years before the environment / atmosphere is in profit.

now let me think, as an environmentalist what should i do?

and do remember all that above is assuming the electric is CO2 free - its not, average production is running above 150 gCO₂/kWh

so lets say an EV gets 4 miles per kwh. therefore 3500 miles would be 875kwh at 150g = 130 kg of co2

so to recalculate; 12 tonne / (0.67-0.13) = 22 years pay back

That's why I said it would be an unrealistic scenario, just to make a point.

You barely - on the grand scheme of things - drive at all, so why would you trade anything in for anything, let alone for a brand-new EV?

Like I said, unrealistic scenario to make a point.

 

[Brigadier]

As Harry the Thin-of-Skin didn't respond to this

A serious question then for Harry: why don't you use an ICE mobility scooter, if ICE is so superior to EV?

I'll respond for him.

Could it be that, for some applications, EV is better than ICE?

And the range of applications is wider than you might appreciate, and is getting wider............


If some could get over their ideological objections to EV they might be horrified to realise that, for their circumstances, it is better.

And then, they can either continue with cutting off their nose to spite their face, or U-turn

 

[Munroast]

As Harry the Thin-of-Skin didn't respond to this




I'll respond for him.

Could it be that, for some applications, EV is better than ICE?

Could it be keeping an older diesel is better for the environment than buying a new EV ?

Brigadier of the thin skin does not seem to like this fact

 

[Brigadier]

Could it be keeping an older diesel is better for the environment than buying a new EV ?

Brigadier of the thin skin does not seem to like this fact

Of course it might be, I've already said so.

For clarity, I have previously said - you can search it if you like - that an EV might not be for you if you can't home charge, for one example.

Avocet will tell you - through his own, lived experience - that range is not a problem (although he might be paying more for it than ICE, when public charging).

A wealth of data will show you that batteries are good for >200k miles by which time, the rest of the car will be tired anyway. Just like an equivalent ICE.

"But EVs depreciate quicker than a rock falls!" Great news for the secondhand buyer then, surely?

I've driven for over 35 yrs, in old and new vans and cars, in petrols and diesels, even a short spell in a hybrid (absolutely the worst of all worlds, IMHO).

My current car - a fully-electric - is by far the best, nicest, drive I've had.

Through home-charging and favourable tax, the cheapest too.
And, while this will not always be the case, why on earth would I refuse £3k a year in my pocket right now, on the off-chance that it will not be guaranteed in perpetuity?

 

[Brigadier]

Brigadier of the thin skin does not seem to like this fact

Not me: I have no-one on Ignore

 

[Avocet]

Could it be keeping an older diesel is better for the environment than buying a new EV ?

Brigadier of the thin skin does not seem to like this fact

Are you going to have another go at proving this "fact", then? (Only...your last one wasn't up to much...)

Go on! I'm sure if you try hard enough, you'll be able to find some sort of incredibly uncommon niche scenario where it might be true!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Are you going to have another go at proving this "fact", then? (Only...your last one wasn't up to much...)

Go on! I'm sure if you try hard enough, you'll be able to find some sort of incredibly uncommon niche scenario where it might be true!

For many, there is simply no need to do the maths, because the answer is so very obvious. For many more, the adoption of an electric vehicle is simply not practical, due to range, options for charging, and/or cost/difficulty of charging.

I used to drive some astronomical mileages, back then, even a modern EV simply wouldn't have been close to a practical option.

Remember - the government, even energy companies are heavily subsidising EV's, to encourage take-up. In the fullness of time, that encouragement will end, and then the adopters will be facing the real cost of EV's.

 

[Brigadier]

For many, there is simply no need to do the maths, because the answer is so very obvious. For many more, the adoption of an electric vehicle is simply not practical, due to range, options for charging, and/or cost/difficulty of charging.

I used to drive some astronomical mileages, back then, even a modern EV simply wouldn't have been close to a practical option.

Like I have said before and repeatedly, I do not disagree with what you have written.
EVs are not for everyone.

Which is not the same as "EVs are not for anyone".


And on your final point:

Remember - the government, even energy companies are heavily subsidising EV's, to encourage take-up. In the fullness of time, that encouragement will end, and then the adopters will be facing the real cost of EV's.

Do you not already think that ICE cars -through their fossil fuels, with which they are mere ornaments - are not already subsidised to some extent?
(Through tax incentives and "allowable expenses", in the UK. About £17 billion per year).

Do you also not think that, by the time these subsidies have reduced, the actual cost of an EV and running it will have fallen significantly anyway?

 

[Avocet]

For many, there is simply no need to do the maths, because the answer is so very obvious.

For many more, there is no need to do the maths because it would give them an answer that they don't like... Strangely, they always seem to decline the opportunity to prove me wrong when I challenge them. I'd have thought they'd want to put it to bed once and for all, don't you? (...what with it being so very obvious & all...)

For many more, the adoption of an electric vehicle is simply not practical, due to range, options for charging, and/or cost/difficulty of charging.

Yes, and I have genuine sympathy for those with genuine problems in that regard. You may have noticed that I've never once challenged anyone who (genuinely) can't charge at home yet. That's why sales of new ICE cars aren't being banned tomorrow...

I used to drive some astronomical mileages, back then, even a modern EV simply wouldn't have been close to a practical option.

I know you seem to have an aversion to actual numbers, but "astronomical" is a somewhat subjective term. Munroast says he does 3,500 miles a year. Maybe to him, 10,000 would be "astronomical"? For various reasons, I'll probably end up doing 25,000 miles in an EV this year...

Remember - the government, even energy companies are heavily subsidising EV's, to encourage take-up. In the fullness of time, that encouragement will end, and then the adopters will be facing the real cost of EV's.

I'm not sure about the government subsidising - never mind "heavily" subsidising! It's knocking £2,500 off a limited number of cheaper EVs and it's fining car manufacturers £12,000 PER CAR over its EV selling target. If anyone's subsidising anything, it's the car manufacturers! The government is also reducing the tax on EVs as company cars... (whilst at the same time, making them subject to VED). It has always done that to incentivise uptake of technologies that private sector companies and individuals are too short-sighted and greedy to invest in. Presumably you disapprove of it charging lower rates of VED for some of the oldest, filthiest diesels still on the road too?

Meanwhile, I wonder what it's going to spend on clearing up after the wildfires in Yorkshire? Or the inevitable next round of floods?

I don't mind facing the "real" cost of EVs when the time comes. I pity all the whining luddites who have chosen to miss out on the savings, but will end up having to run EVs anyway, in the future AND pay full whack for the privilege, but hey ho, their choice...

 

[robinbanks]

Could it be keeping an older diesel is better for the environment than buying a new EV ?

If you don't drive it, then sure!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

If you don't drive it, then sure!

Nonsense - I could jump in my ICE this afternoon, and drive it to the other end of the UK, without any concerns about range, worry about finding somewhere to refill the tank, or concerns about delays whilst it charged. In fact my range beginning with a full tank, would allow me to reach that 'far end' plus much of the way back, before I would need to stop, and spend a few minutes topping back up. I also have no concerns about it suddenly catching fire, and exploding.

 

[Brigadier]

I could jump in my ICE this afternoon, and drive it to the other end of the UK, without any concerns about range, worry about finding somewhere to refill the tank, or concerns about delays whilst it charged.

But you won't.

And neither will 99.999% of the rest of the UK driving population. Ever.

So, again, another utterly unrealistic scenario, which proves nothing other than the lengths people go to, to "demonstrate" the "superiority" of ICE.....


Tell me, why is your mobility scooter EV, and not ICE?

 

[Avocet]

But you won't.

And neither will 99.999% of the rest of the UK driving population. Ever.

So, again, another utterly unrealistic scenario, which proves nothing other than the lengths people go to, to "demonstrate" the "superiority" of ICE.....


Tell me, why is your mobility scooter EV, and not ICE?

No, he's right! I bitterly regret getting an EV, every time I want to drive the length of the country without stopping...

...which is "never"!

Bless them, it's all they've got. Before getting an EV I looked at all the things I typically want the car to do. Strangely, "overtake virtually anything effortlessly" and "cost sod-all to run" and "de-ice at the tap of an app", all ended up a bit higher up the list and "being able to drive 700 miles without stopping", but hey, each to their own!

 

[robinbanks]

Nonsense - I could jump ...

That's really quite some tangent you've gone off on there

 

[Avocet]

Nonsense - I could jump in my ICE this afternoon, and drive it to the other end of the UK, without any concerns about range, worry about finding somewhere to refill the tank, or concerns about delays whilst it charged. In fact my range beginning with a full tank, would allow me to reach that 'far end' plus much of the way back, before I would need to stop, and spend a few minutes topping back up. I also have no concerns about it suddenly catching fire, and exploding.

But that's not what you were claiming. You were claiming it was better for the environment. Have you gone off the idea of trying to back that claim up now, so you've changed the subject?