Electric shock treatment

[ricicle]

and this is where youll say we differ as i say with one pin connected the load is at a voltage potential when two pins are connected as to make a circuit then the there is a potential difference across the load and thats why current flows through the shaver and turns the motor.

I think you are beginning to get confused now Tim.A potential difference exists across the shaver outlet terminals regardless of wether or not the load is connected and current flow takes place.It doesn't suddenly become a potential difference just because current is flowing.
Voltage and potential difference are exactly the same thing.

 

[tim west]

What is the voltage potential of one hole in the socket?

Relative to

[1] Itself.......Zero

[2] the other hole 230 volt hole 230 volt AC

[3] one of the 110 volt holes either 230 or zero.

[4] the other 110 volt hole about 120 volt

Any other reference point it would would have no rational potential as there is (in the ideal situation) go galvanic circuit between the two points and in the real world a very complex circuit of capacitive, mutual inductance and other non galvanic components exists with among other things the transformer bobbin and the hand holding the test instrument being prime components.

bernard we are trying to keep it in simple terms

 

[tim west]

That pin say 240 if you like is only 240 with respect to the other pin (OK it will vary slightly depending whether or not load is attached).
But it is not 240 in respect to earth.

Your 11KV line is only 11KV with repect to earth.

Take normal mains (Low voltage).

Phase 1 is 240 with repect to earth (& N).
Phase 2 & 3 likewise 240 to E (& N).
However Phase 1 to 2 (or 3) is 415.

I`m speaking in old currency now.

In each case there is a potential difference between the two being measured, therefore current can flow

 

[bernardgreen]

Phase 1 is 240 with repect to earth (& N).
Phase 2 & 3 likewise 240 to E (& N).
However Phase 1 to 2 (or 3) is 415.

I`m speaking in old currency now.

In each case there is a potential difference between the two being measured, therefore current can flow

But if Phase 2 & 3 both measure as 240 to N then they are the some potential as each other and therefore no current would flow in a wire between phase 2 and 3.

All explained by that other parameter phase angle.......

Lets not go there.......

 

[megawatt]

Mod 7: Please explain why you keep on deleting this?

And, yes I have reported your behaviour to site Admin.

This is NOT abuse, please get a life.

MW

 

[bernardgreen]

bernard we are trying to keep it in simple terms

Unfortunately those pesky electrons hate each other so much they will do anything to get away from collections of themselves ( negative potential ) and do all they can to get to a place where there are less electrons ( positive potential ) and they do all sorts of complax things to make that journey possible.

 

[tim west]

and this is where youll say we differ as i say with one pin connected the load is at a voltage potential when two pins are connected as to make a circuit then the there is a potential difference across the load and thats why current flows through the shaver and turns the motor.

I think you are beginning to get confused now Tim.A potential difference exists across the shaver outlet terminals regardless of wether or not the load is connected and current flow takes place.It doesn't suddenly become a potential difference just because current is flowing.
Voltage and potential difference are exactly the same thing.

only if internal resistance is taken into consideration can you talk in terms of voltage and pd the voltage potential is a hypothetical value as there is no way to measure it without creating a circuit and thats the crux of the birdie scenario you need a circuit to make the 11kv a danger to the birdie as stated by bernie a hundred posts back!

 

[ebee]

voltage potential is a hypothetical value

Hah , so it does not actually exist then good.
PD does exist

Ph 1 to E ( & N) = 240
Ph 2 to E ( & N) = 240
Ph 3 to E ( & N) = 240

Ph 1 to Ph 2 = 415
Ph 2 to Ph 3 = 415
Ph 3 to Ph 1 = 415

Bathroom shaver socket

teminal 1 to Terminal 2 = 240
Terminal 1 to E = 0
Terminal 2 to E = 0

I have not included the usual 110V output for the sake of clarity

They are all voltages because of their potential differences to each other.

 

[tim west]

bernard we are trying to keep it in simple terms

Unfortunately those pesky electrons hate each other so much they will do anything to get away from collections of themselves ( negative potential ) and do all they can to get to a place where there are less electrons ( positive potential ) and they do all sorts of complax things to make that journey possible.

Bernard explain to them that a conductor can be charged to a potential if there is insulation surrounding it so that it cant discharge. Use anything you like to explain, capacitors,van der graff genny experiments whatever as it doesnt seem to register with some here coming from me.

 

[megawatt]

Whilst the consumer sparks amongst you may be having difficulty with this, electronics engineers shouldn't be.

Differences of voltage potential between physically neighbouring components on a board which are NOT on the same circuit and subject to different potential difference is a major design issue for real time systems circuit designers ... Particularly in the aerospace industry.

Ricicle wrote:

Voltage and potential difference are exactly the same thing.

I agree, but Voltage Potential and Potential Difference are NOT the same thing.

MW

 

[ricicle]

the voltage potential is a hypothetical value as there is no way to measure it without creating a circuit

But so is potential difference.It is still there without measuring it.I know it will never be exactly the same as a non-measured value as even with the highest impedance meter it will still cause a tiny current to flow and lower the PD very minutely

 

[tim west]

voltage potential is a hypothetical value

Hah , so it does not actually exist then good.
PD does exist

ok clever clogs as you seem to want to twist things now if you have two wires at 0 volts potential where you going to get you're magical pd from?? eh come on! you have to have a voltage potential in the first place in order to be able to achieve a potential difference.
thats why a wire can be said to have a voltage potential without it actually being in a complete circuit, it has the potential to kill but doesnt without reference put a person ,bird or load between the potential voltage and a different potential(doesnt have to be 0 volts) and you then have whats termed a potential difference and connect a load to this voltage(yes an actual voltage now) and it drives a current through the load, disconnect one leg of the load and surprise surprise no current.

 

[bernardgreen]

http://www.alaska.net/~natnkell/staticgen.htm


And somewhere it may mention the old trick of charging a Leyden jar and then taking the inner cylinder out of the glass and then taking the glass out of the outer cylinder and leaving the three parts on the shelf with the inner cylinder inside the outer cylinder, metal to metal so no voltage. Each part of the jar can be safely handled. Then someone puts them together and suddemly and maybe painfully finds there is a voltage between inner cylinder and outer cylinder.

Odd stuff electricity both in static and fluid format.

 

[megawatt]

I think you may be punishing a dead equine here Tim as these guys can't seem to get beyond cables and batteries

 

[Softus]

if you have two wires at 0 volts potential where you going to get you're magical pd from?

Potential difference is measured in volts. If you have zero volts then the potential difference equals zero, which is a valid value.

tim, are you not starting to wonder why several people are telling you you're using the wrong words, and yet you're the only one telling us that we're wrong/stupid?