13a sockets on radial with 20a dp switch

[snapshot25]

Hi, I've recently renovated an apartment, and due to the style of the building, I opted to do away with the ceiling roses in the huge bedroom (it's a 1930's building and the original conduit wiring was disconnected years ago, and new wiring installed cheaply in plastic conduit on the surface of the concrete ceilings). Instead, I'm using floor lamps and task lighting which I prefer anyway, and instead of fitting in 2a round pin sockets (so I could switch them on from the lightwsitch, I decided to run a new 15a radial circuit from the cu to the lightswitch point in 2.5mm t&e, then to a couple of unswitched 13a sockets at suitable locations to accompany the 30a ring sockets. These are switched via a 20a dp grid switch to operate them from the door. Can anyone give me a reason why you don't see this setup usually? It seems like a much more sensible way of switching portable lamps e.t.c. without having to use 2a plugs?? (this is common in the US with 15a radial sockets operated from the lightswitch)
thanks

 

[riveralt]

Can anyone give me a reason why you don't see this setup usually?

Because it is illegal.

 

[1john]

Cost, 20A grid switch and the 2.5mm cable all cost more, the grid switch is marginally more time consuming to wire and the 2.5mm is marginally more time consuming to install, strip and terminate, it is also over the top. There may be future problems if someone were to replace the 20A switch with a standard light switch and perhaps run high wattage appliances on the circuit too. Whats wrong with using standard installation methods? 5A sockets are better imo as the plugs have a little more room in for wiring. Whats more bizarre that people install ring final circuits, especially for bedrooms.

 

[ericmark]

Seems a lot of work to go to? I have a small remote control which will work four lamps from existing sockets two with dimmer and two without. Lidi best and works great.

There are options to fit radio controls to standard switches see here for example just can't see point in hard wiring.

 

[bernardgreen]

There are options to fit radio controls to standard switches see here for example just can't see point in hard wiring.

Hard wiring is always going to be more reliable given that the vast majority of these systems work on common licence frequencies which are becoming over crowded. Instances of systems interefering with each other are increasing as more and more equipment is installed.

Wireless has it's uses

Illuminate your boat moored in the harbour to make it easy to row out to.

as long as only one boat responds to your signal to light up.

 

[sparkwright]

Despite snapshot25 totally disgracing himself on another topic about bathrooms, there are some advantages to having a dedicated 15 amp circuit just serving 13 amp sockets for table lamps.

This would mean you can fit any table lamp in any socket without changing the plug, and also plug-in timers and plug-in remote control units can be used easily.

However, what snapshot25 forgets is that there may be occasion where it is desirable to replace the 20 amp double pole switch with a dimmer.

And it's all to easy for other appliances to be plugged into these sockets, which wouldn't be a good idea if a dimmer was added.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Can anyone give me a reason why you don't see this setup usually?

Because it is illegal.

In what way?

 

[riveralt]

Can anyone give me a reason why you don't see this setup usually?

Because it is illegal.

In what way?

More to do with the complete installation - where despite a new circuit from the cu there appears to be no evidence of testing, certification or notification to his Local Authority Building Control.
Initially suspected by:
//www.diynot.com/forums/electrics/outhouse-electrical-supply.319952/
Then re-enforced by

when I did by bathroom, I just insisted on a regular 2 gang chrome lightswitch on the wall, I don't care about regulations, its nonsense,

I could of course be totally wrong - if I am then I apologise.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

More to do with the complete installation - where despite a new circuit from the cu there appears to be no evidence of testing, certification or notification to his Local Authority Building Control.

Ah - sorry - I thought you meant the basic design was intrinsically illegal.

Initially suspected by:
//www.diynot.com/forums/electrics/outhouse-electrical-supply.319952/[/QUOTE]
I'd forgotten about that one - he never did get back with answers to any of the questions.

Then re-enforced by

when I did by bathroom, I just insisted on a regular 2 gang chrome lightswitch on the wall, I don't care about regulations, its nonsense,

He's a stupid and dangerous ****, that's for sure.

 

[snapshot25]

Ban-all-sheds, just as building regulations are strictly guidelines (not a legal requirement as people assume, unless in a commercial situation where public safety is concerned), an internet forum is also designed for people to share their experiences and opinions so that other people can make their own informed decisions, which is why I joined the forum. I am an architect, and am constantly shocked by the quality of British construction, plumbing and wiring that passes building control, when people constantly get hung up on irrelevant regulations. What people do in their own home whilst they are living there is their own decision and as long as it is not new construction, affecting neighbours or planning regulations, is not practically enforced by building control. When and if they come to sell, it is up to the buyers to have it inspected and make their own decision if they want anything changed. As far as insurance is concerned, I agree that anything about an electrical installation that could intrinsically cause a fire is incorrect, e.g. cable sizing, dated wiring, recessed lights covered with fibreglass insulation e.t.c. but anything regarding personal safety e.g. electric shock, user design (circuit separation) comes down to common sense and informed decision.
Regulations will also change, and a lot of changes will occur over the next few years with regards to electrical installation, which is why I'm keen to throw things out there and see what peoples' reactions are.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ban-all-sheds, just as building regulations are strictly guidelines (not a legal requirement as people assume, unless in a commercial situation where public safety is concerned),

Really?

That's not what the Building Act says.

I am an architect

I pity your clients.

and am constantly shocked by the quality of British construction, plumbing and wiring that passes building control,

Suits you though - makes it easier for you to find some t**t of a tradesman prepared to put your sh*te ideas into practice.

What people do in their own home whilst they are living there is their own decision and as long as it is not new construction, affecting neighbours or planning regulations, is not practically enforced by building control.

That does not mean that contraventions are not illegal or dangerous.

anything regarding personal safety e.g. electric shock, user design (circuit separation) comes down to common sense and informed decision.

But you have none and can't make any.

Regulations will also change, and a lot of changes will occur over the next few years with regards to electrical installation, which is why I'm keen to throw things out there and see what peoples' reactions are.

Go away.

 

[SimonH2]

Wouldn't an answer be to use a smaller capacity feed - say 6 or 10A breaker - and smaller cable. That way, if someone does plug in (say) a fan heater it will trip the breaker and they'll learn not to do it again. Then a standard switch (or dimmer if required) can be used.

Make it a 6A breaker and 1mm^2 cable and it'll be a lot easier to wire (and cheaper in materials).

I recall as a student (<cough> years ago) that we had 2A lighting sockets in our rooms. Being a tight (read, hard up) student, I figured that the lights weren't metered but out power sockets were. And I found a 500W in-cup water heater to use instead of a kettle. Having electrical knowledge meant I knew just how much I could safely run from each socket

Also, in my parents house they had a lot of sockets which were a double faceplate, but had one 13A socket, a fuse, and 2off 2A sockets. Some are still there, most got replaced with double 13A sockets.

 

[snapshot25]

you're a very heated poster aren't you ban-all-sheds?
where you're wrong, is that buildings regulations are the law, you are legally obliged to apply for building consent before carrying out any works, and you're legally obliged to have it tested. If the person testing deems anything incorrect, then you are obliged to make changes. However, approved documents are still only guidance and not statutory requirements, and are open to interpretation and compliance is negotiable. If somebody never applied for building consent, nobody will ever be aware of any faults, and in most instances, if something has been standing for more than a year, it is exempt from the retrospective building control enforcement anyway. Catch my drift? I guess what I'm saying, is people should not be allowed to feel as though they are being taken hostage in their own home. If it's a professional working on somebody else's home, that's a completely different matter.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

buildings regulations are the law, you are legally obliged to apply for building consent before carrying out any works, and you're legally obliged to have it tested. If the person testing deems anything incorrect, then you are obliged to make changes.

Make your mind up.

building regulations are strictly guidelines (not a legal requirement as people assume,

However, approved documents are still only guidance and not statutory requirements,

Who said anything about Approved Documents.

Catch my drift?

Yes - you're a criminal hoping to escape detection for a year.

I guess what I'm saying, is people should not be allowed to feel as though they are being taken hostage in their own home.

Dear God we've got another freedom fighter, bravely resisting the jackboots of the LABC stormtroopers.

 

[snapshot25]

Wouldn't an answer be to use a smaller capacity feed - say 6 or 10A breaker - and smaller cable. That way, if someone does plug in (say) a fan heater it will trip the breaker and they'll learn not to do it again. Then a standard switch (or dimmer if required) can be used.

Make it a 6A breaker and 1mm^2 cable and it'll be a lot easier to wire (and cheaper in materials).

I recall as a student (<cough> years ago) that we had 2A lighting sockets in our rooms. Being a tight (read, hard up) student, I figured that the lights weren't metered but out power sockets were. And I found a 500W in-cup water heater to use instead of a kettle. Having electrical knowledge meant I knew just how much I could safely run from each socket

Also, in my parents house they had a lot of sockets which were a double faceplate, but had one 13A socket, a fuse, and 2off 2A sockets. Some are still there, most got replaced with double 13A sockets.

The thing is, you can't install a 13a socket on a 6 or 10a mcb, you may be able to use 1.5mm cable if the distance is suitable, but 2.5mm is more often than not required for power circuits. I know the old type of plugs you've mentioned with the 2x2a and 1x13a, but problem is, it's very inconvenient having to put 2a plugs on all task lamps, christmas lights e.t.c. and if you want to move it and plug it in a 13a socket, you have to change the plug. The US system makes sense in this way, as you'll find a lot of bedrooms don't have ceiling lights, but the light switch operates one side of one or more regular two-gang outlets around the room. All circuits are individual 15a lines, and all flex is rated at 15amps (as plugs are unfused). I guess it comes down to ring circuits, which aren't really necessary or suitable any more (they were originally designed for economy when wiring a whole house, but one ring is nowhere near enough for a whole house any more) In the UAE, they do put uk-style 13a sockets on 6a breakers using thinner cables for TV and lamp locations as the plugs themselves don't have fuses, and people staying in hotels frequently blow fuses plugging the iron or hairdryer into the tv socket lol.