When I done my Isar/Icos training at Ideal factory when they first came out, we asked trainer how much the most expensive pcb cost Ideal. He answered £15! We asked why we have to pay so much for them and he blamed all the supply companies in between for adding their mark up!
Baxi Solo 3 PF50 boiler - Chattering relay fault
- Thread starter underwurlde
- Start date
Sponsored Links
From my originating post:
I said make, as in manufacture. Manufacturing costs do NOT include VAT.
I was being realistic. If I can buy a 70Amp 12VDC Potter & Brumfield relay for less than £1.00 why would I be thinking that any of those relays cost more than that? I am not talking RS, Farnell or Maplin prices either.
Manufacturing is a numbers game, the bigger the numbers the cheaper things become (until you hit a saturation point on cost). 25,000 per annum was my complete and utter (but reasonable) guess. and there are (if memory serves) 3 relays on that PCB. Note: That was for only ONE control PCB out of, more than likely, a number of many different control boards supplied to Baxi.
I’d therefore hazard a guess that the production line was probably gobbling up about 200,000 relays per annum. Saturation point on cost is about 100,000, so anything above this number is a mute point anyway.
I therefore would not think that the cost of the 3 relays plus the EHT transformer, in volume, would cost more than £3.00. When looking at these kind of volumes, don’t think in terms of ‘relays are expensive’, instead look at what makes it what it is: A very small amount of ABS (injected moulded), copper (stamped and shaped), insulators (stamped) and a machine to assemble it all.
It matters not if these components can be made for 15p. If the market can stand a price, in this case, of up to £120 (which regardless of peoples discontent is only measured by the numbers sold) then anyone who sells them for cost plus a few percent won't win any award for business sense.
Sponsored Links
@Nixt. Of course your points are valid. I have no issues with that. I merely pointed out that such Control Boards would only cost about a tenner to actually make. I believe I have gone a long way to underlining my 'grandiose statement', which I hope is now 'more glaringly RIGHT than a naked nonse at a 5 year old's birthday birthday' (whatever the hell that was meant to mean).
Are you going to come back with any kind of constructive argument, based on a qualified response & experience that would otherwise disprove my original point 'since it will be an easy argument to win', according to you? Or are you 'ducking out of the argument'. Or are you going to STFU (fingers crossed)?
I might do; then again I might not. It's for me to know and you to fret over.underwurlde said:
Nope. But I wonder if I'll take my own sweet time, in view of how long you took to post a reply to my questions.
Finger crossing is just the kind of superstitious nonsense that non-engineers use instead of common sense.
Pathetic response. As per normal.
...
. If you can be bothered to read this has been pointed out before. The only thing he has given me 'for free' is a pain in the ar$e: Certianly nothing useful and all of it definately WRONG. Some 'advice'!
I have a life other than trolling this forum. But whatever, take your time - you'll need it after all. First you've got to get qualified. And then you have to get some experience. And then in about 10 years time you'll be better suited to respond to my simple statement that you will then actually know something about & in doing so will then agree with me.
...
Oops, that was embarrasing for you
. If you can be bothered to read this has been pointed out before. The only thing he has given me 'for free' is a pain in the ar$e: Certianly nothing useful and all of it definately WRONG. Some 'advice'!You're astonishingly easy to wind up (even easier than BigBurn).underwurlde said:
Don't we all, but I was referring to the fifty eight hours that elapsed between the post in which I asked some questions and the one in which you answered them - the period during which you managed to make six posts while having what you claim to be "a life" - presumably you spent the rest of that time at Tesco, determining how poxy their shop is.
OK underwurlde, now that supper is gone and Eastenders is spellbinding the nation, I have some minutes to go through your post.
You seem to have missed the point that I challenged your original assertion (of board costing <= £10 to make) because you (a) were so arrogant about your qualifications and experience, (b) were so disparaging of an RGI who, in all likelihood, is trying to make an honest living, and (c) practically dared someone to disagree.
I've never claimed, nor pretended, to know as much as you probably do about electronics or PCB design and production. However, you'll never find out how much I know because I don't blow the smoke of my own qualifications or experience in anyone's face. I find people who trumpet about themselves to be quite insecure and a more than a little pathetic. That's just my view.
To pick up on one point, and to illustrate some of the constipated logic that you deploy, the example of the £17.44 Tesco DVD player was supposed to be ironic. I still can hardly believe you failed to spot it, and that you prefer to think that I'm so stupid as to have furnished with you a ready-made example that would prove your point. The fact is that it doesn't prove anything. If you still think it does, then consider this:
Tesco also sell other crappo DVD players; they sell the next one up the price chain for about £27, or thereabouts. If your reasoning is so faultless, then the production costs for this are identical, give or take £0.01, to those for the £17.44 unit, and the only logical conclusion from your reasoning is that there's an extra £10 of profit in the more expensive one. This exposes your reasoning as being flawed, without having to go into the minutiae of transistor costs, because you've paid no heed to the quality of the finished product, and the cost of dealing with returns. Given this last point, there's no way for Tesco to make any money out of selling the £17.44 unit, because one made out of mashed potatoes would be about as reliable. Why do they sell it? Clearly to get people into the shop. It's called a loss-leader. But you'll know all about that.
Your calculations of the cost producing a boiler PCB are, on the one hand, reasonable, but you're surprisingly blinkered for someone who calls himself an engineer. Maybe they cost £10, or maybe £20, or £30 - I don't really care, because the cost is a tiny proportion of the RRP, which is all you had to say at the beginning, and everyone would have agreed with you.
So, on to answering some of the questions you aimed at me, purely in order to prevent any accusation of hypocrisy...
There - that was so easy I expect you're kicking yourself for not thinking of it yourself.
You seem to have missed the point that I challenged your original assertion (of board costing <= £10 to make) because you (a) were so arrogant about your qualifications and experience, (b) were so disparaging of an RGI who, in all likelihood, is trying to make an honest living, and (c) practically dared someone to disagree.
I've never claimed, nor pretended, to know as much as you probably do about electronics or PCB design and production. However, you'll never find out how much I know because I don't blow the smoke of my own qualifications or experience in anyone's face. I find people who trumpet about themselves to be quite insecure and a more than a little pathetic. That's just my view.
To pick up on one point, and to illustrate some of the constipated logic that you deploy, the example of the £17.44 Tesco DVD player was supposed to be ironic. I still can hardly believe you failed to spot it, and that you prefer to think that I'm so stupid as to have furnished with you a ready-made example that would prove your point. The fact is that it doesn't prove anything. If you still think it does, then consider this:
Tesco also sell other crappo DVD players; they sell the next one up the price chain for about £27, or thereabouts. If your reasoning is so faultless, then the production costs for this are identical, give or take £0.01, to those for the £17.44 unit, and the only logical conclusion from your reasoning is that there's an extra £10 of profit in the more expensive one. This exposes your reasoning as being flawed, without having to go into the minutiae of transistor costs, because you've paid no heed to the quality of the finished product, and the cost of dealing with returns. Given this last point, there's no way for Tesco to make any money out of selling the £17.44 unit, because one made out of mashed potatoes would be about as reliable. Why do they sell it? Clearly to get people into the shop. It's called a loss-leader. But you'll know all about that.
Your calculations of the cost producing a boiler PCB are, on the one hand, reasonable, but you're surprisingly blinkered for someone who calls himself an engineer. Maybe they cost £10, or maybe £20, or £30 - I don't really care, because the cost is a tiny proportion of the RRP, which is all you had to say at the beginning, and everyone would have agreed with you.
So, on to answering some of the questions you aimed at me, purely in order to prevent any accusation of hypocrisy...
Well, when I listen to people, or read what they write, I don't judge what they say according to the qualifications they say they have. To do so would be naive, for one thing, and stifling of free thought for another.
When I explain to a client why I recommend the things that I do, I give the reasoning, not a list of qualifications. I treat people as if they are capable of understanding, not as inferior because they have, or might have, passed fewer exams, or haven't worked as long in a given field of expertise. It's precisely because you rely on your qualifications as proof of your arguments that I have no faith in your conclusions. If you want respect, and you clearly do, then you have to show some.
In fact, I do.
You've certainly been wasting your time, but that's hardly anyone else's fault.
By all means - profit, insurance, warranty, and customer support. For example, the recent Suprima PCB debacle has resulted in Potterton spending more money on warranty then they were expecting to. Clearly that doesn't come out of the £10, and only a fool would think that they were getting a replacement board for nothing.
There - that was so easy I expect you're kicking yourself for not thinking of it yourself.
No - it isn't the best. But you weren't worth me putting more effort into it than that.
You're the only person on the forum who appears to think that you weren't showing off. If it's so important to you to think that, then please go ahead. Have a ball. Knock yourself out. Give yourself an honorary doctorate, or a gold star, or something.
I'm not. You are. Please see above.
But whichever company produced the assembly that you've just butchered was not one that anyone could describe as "sleek". Does this mean that they produced that assembly for more cost, or less? You don't have to answer this - it's just food for thought. Don't bolt it though - chew it slowly and let the flavour flood out.
That's nice.
DIYnot Local
Staff member
If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.
Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.
Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local
Sponsored Links
